Mortgages

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ShaunWhite
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Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

From the start you need to establish a 'front', like you would with any ify income.
Something like your missus having an IT consultancy ... they you become the main client and voila, the company has a valid income. She then employs you as a consultant (to shed some more expenses and get more allowances) etc etc etc. Sure, you might need to worry about tax, but seeing as profits from 'gambling' are tax and NI exempt, it's only proper some tax gets paid somewhere down the line. You can't be a tax avoider and expect to live in a country with decent fire/police/schools/nhs etc.
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ShaunWhite
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Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

LeTiss wrote:
Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:18 pm
It's a bloody disgrace when you consider how the banks themselves gamble with our money all the time!

I hate banks, and I hate bankers - the word CNUT was invented for bankers
But you like free banking and expect your pension to grow faster than inflation....who does all that then?

Banks can't do that if your £20 is just sat in a bank vault. Growing money requires calculated risk, jeez that's what trading is all about so you'd think people here of all places would get that.

Hating 'bankers' (even though no such job actually exists) is easier that thinking about what they actually do. 2 or 3 banking glitches in over 100yrs of steady returns, it's a good record. Also, if customers didn't expect the earth, banks wouldn't be so inclined to 'gamble', to make enough money, to offer the returns, that top Martin Lewis's top deals list.

So, banker haters, how should your pension money be invested to make 6% a year? My 'bankers' have made me an avg of 11%pa for the last 30yrs on my pension savings, you won't find me complaining if they have a bad patch.
LinusP
Posts: 1871
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:45 pm

ShaunWhite wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:21 pm
From the start you need to establish a 'front', like you would with any ify income.
Something like your missus having an IT consultancy ... they you become the main client and voila, the company has a valid income. She then employs you as a consultant (to shed some more expenses and get more allowances) etc etc etc. Sure, you might need to worry about tax, but seeing as profits from 'gambling' are tax and NI exempt, it's only proper some tax gets paid somewhere down the line. You can't be a tax avoider and expect to live in a country with decent fire/police/schools/nhs etc.
You have just described a form of money laundering, although in this case probably not technically illegal its going to raise all sorts of transaction monitoring alerts at the bank you decide to do this with.
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ShaunWhite
Posts: 9731
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

LinusP wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:33 pm
ShaunWhite wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:21 pm
From the start you need to establish a 'front', like you would with any ify income.
Something like your missus having an IT consultancy ... they you become the main client and voila, the company has a valid income. She then employs you as a consultant (to shed some more expenses and get more allowances) etc etc etc. Sure, you might need to worry about tax, but seeing as profits from 'gambling' are tax and NI exempt, it's only proper some tax gets paid somewhere down the line. You can't be a tax avoider and expect to live in a country with decent fire/police/schools/nhs etc.
You have just described a form of money laundering, although in this case probably not technically illegal its going to raise all sorts of transaction monitoring alerts at the bank you decide to do this with.
It's not illegal or laundering. Gambling income isn't illegally gained. It's not even like you're trying to avoid tax from a cash-in-hand business.
If you do all your banking at one bank then it might look interesting but that would be a pretty foolish thing to do. There's plenty of 'non-banks' around these days so your income account won't even show on any credit checks.

The easy and 'legit' answer to the mortgage issue is to just get one from a European lender, many EU countries permit self-cert mortgages and customer protection regs are good in most countries but would need to be researched, and you can hedge against currency exposure.
BUT I suspect brexit will have screwed up that option.

There are specialist lenders you can deal with, but they aren't cheap. They're still cheaper than a mortgage for your average self-employed or PAYE Joe though because you've not paid any income tax on the money you're paying your mortgage with. 'Joe' has got to gross over a grand to pay his £600 mortgage.
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EyePeaSea
Posts: 258
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:18 am

LinusP wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:33 pm
ShaunWhite wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:21 pm
From the start you need to establish a 'front', like you would with any ify income.
Something like your missus having an IT consultancy ... they you become the main client and voila, the company has a valid income. She then employs you as a consultant (to shed some more expenses and get more allowances) etc etc etc. Sure, you might need to worry about tax, but seeing as profits from 'gambling' are tax and NI exempt, it's only proper some tax gets paid somewhere down the line. You can't be a tax avoider and expect to live in a country with decent fire/police/schools/nhs etc.
You have just described a form of money laundering, although in this case probably not technically illegal its going to raise all sorts of transaction monitoring alerts at the bank you decide to do this with.
Absolutely not. But almost. The key difference is whether the source of the income is illegal or not. Shaun just outlined an approach to have the money come through a more recognised source, as opposed to "Oh that cash? I won 15k on the 3:15 at Cheltenham". Money is money, but by masking it like that, you remove the negative perception for people making judgements on credit worthiness.

I've been a contractor for 15 years - back then, it was very difficult to get banks to understand/accept money from Dividends rather than a P60. Who knows - in 15 years time, personal gambling may be more accepted. Also Shaun did include the fact that his suggestion would actually increase the tax take by HMRC - and it's hard to criticise someone who manages their affairs to avoid negative preconceptions/ignorance by banks *and* at the same time, contributes more to the state.
kerberus
Posts: 366
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:28 pm

I'm not trying to encourage paranaoia - but given the context/timing of this thread I thought this may be interesting!

Ban on MPs from employing spouses at next election
BBC 3 hours ago
From the section UK Politics


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39282279

I think they might already be on to you. :shock:

If they won't let themselves do it they'll be damned if they let you. ;)
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ShaunWhite
Posts: 9731
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

kerberus wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:57 am
I'm not trying to encourage paranaoia - but given the context/timing of this thread I thought this may be interesting!

Ban on MPs from employing spouses at next election
BBC 3 hours ago

If they won't let themselves do it they'll be damned if they let you. ;)
That's a totally different scenario to do with expenses, not a ban on spouses working for the same company.
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LeTiss
Posts: 5386
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:04 pm

Shaun, I notice your reply to me - you have completely got the wrong end of the stick

I don't hate bankers because they try to make our money work for us - what I hate, is the way in which they achieve that, is not much different to the way in which a self-employed trader would work. However, they then erode your credit rating due to your risky activities, even though they are doing the exactly same thing on their own trading floor, and not even with their own money
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ShaunWhite
Posts: 9731
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

LeTiss wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:15 pm
Shaun, I notice your reply to me - you have completely got the wrong end of the stick

I don't hate bankers because they try to make our money work for us - what I hate, is the way in which they achieve that, is not much different to the way in which a self-employed trader would work. However, they then erode your credit rating due to your risky activities, even though they are doing the exactly same thing on their own trading floor, and not even with their own money
Fair enough Tiss, I see your point. Retail banking and investment banking seem to live on different planets.
LinusP
Posts: 1871
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:45 pm

EyePeaSea wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:25 am
LinusP wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:33 pm
ShaunWhite wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:21 pm
From the start you need to establish a 'front', like you would with any ify income.
Something like your missus having an IT consultancy ... they you become the main client and voila, the company has a valid income. She then employs you as a consultant (to shed some more expenses and get more allowances) etc etc etc. Sure, you might need to worry about tax, but seeing as profits from 'gambling' are tax and NI exempt, it's only proper some tax gets paid somewhere down the line. You can't be a tax avoider and expect to live in a country with decent fire/police/schools/nhs etc.
You have just described a form of money laundering, although in this case probably not technically illegal its going to raise all sorts of transaction monitoring alerts at the bank you decide to do this with.
Absolutely not. But almost. The key difference is whether the source of the income is illegal or not. Shaun just outlined an approach to have the money come through a more recognised source, as opposed to "Oh that cash? I won 15k on the 3:15 at Cheltenham". Money is money, but by masking it like that, you remove the negative perception for people making judgements on credit worthiness.

I've been a contractor for 15 years - back then, it was very difficult to get banks to understand/accept money from Dividends rather than a P60. Who knows - in 15 years time, personal gambling may be more accepted. Also Shaun did include the fact that his suggestion would actually increase the tax take by HMRC - and it's hard to criticise someone who manages their affairs to avoid negative preconceptions/ignorance by banks *and* at the same time, contributes more to the state.
Agreed it is not illegal but setting up a front company is a money laundering process so you are only going to put more focus on yourself and the application.

In this example you also still have the issue of both accounts being screened in order to get a mortgage so there will still be deposits from betfair/paypal which then get paid to the spouse which will inevitably raise questions.
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Frogmella
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 2:44 pm
Location: Towcester

The system has gone from one extreme to the other.

Recently we had to remortgage because our interest only (liar loan) expired.

We only wanted 15% loan to value, we applied for a 10 year fixed interest loan from Nationwide, the payments were to be roughly a third of the amount we had paid monthly for the last ten years. My missus has been with them for 40 years, had £75k on deposit with them (from the endowment policy we took out to pay off the liar loan) and still they turned us down - apparently because we failed the stress test they apply for when interest rates rise (remember it was supposed to be a fixed interest mortgage). In the end we had to take out an Equity release deal where the interest rate was four times higher than the amount Nationwide said we couldn't afford.

Crazy world.
kerberus
Posts: 366
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:28 pm

Ouch. :roll:
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ShaunWhite
Posts: 9731
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

LinusP wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:40 pm

Agreed it is not illegal but setting up a front company is a money laundering process so you are only going to put more focus on yourself and the application.

In this example you also still have the issue of both accounts being screened in order to get a mortgage so there will still be deposits from betfair/paypal which then get paid to the spouse which will inevitably raise questions.
It's not laundering. It's money dirtying if anything. And only ONE account is scrutinised if it's a sole applicant. Even mortgage companies don't look at your company's customer list or their bank accounts. Anyway, you're probably better off talking to your accountant about this rather than looking for advice here. Bottom line is that you're going to have to 'launder' your dirty trading money somehow, a quick spin on the 'delicates' cycle is all that's necessary.

EyePeaSee - You're right about the divi's I had the same issue when i was a contractor.
LinusP
Posts: 1871
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:45 pm

ShaunWhite wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:08 pm
LinusP wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:40 pm

Agreed it is not illegal but setting up a front company is a money laundering process so you are only going to put more focus on yourself and the application.

In this example you also still have the issue of both accounts being screened in order to get a mortgage so there will still be deposits from betfair/paypal which then get paid to the spouse which will inevitably raise questions.
It's not laundering. It's money dirtying if anything. And only ONE account is scrutinised if it's a sole applicant. Even mortgage companies don't look at your company's customer list or their bank accounts. Anyway, you're probably better off talking to your accountant about this rather than looking for advice here. Bottom line is that you're going to have to 'launder' your dirty trading money somehow, a quick spin on the 'delicates' cycle is all that's necessary.

EyePeaSee - You're right about the divi's I had the same issue when i was a contractor.
You are contradicting yourself in that first paragraph.
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ShaunWhite
Posts: 9731
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

LinusP wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:13 pm
ShaunWhite wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:08 pm
LinusP wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:40 pm

Agreed it is not illegal but setting up a front company is a money laundering process so you are only going to put more focus on yourself and the application.

In this example you also still have the issue of both accounts being screened in order to get a mortgage so there will still be deposits from betfair/paypal which then get paid to the spouse which will inevitably raise questions.
It's not laundering. It's money dirtying if anything. And only ONE account is scrutinised if it's a sole applicant. Even mortgage companies don't look at your company's customer list or their bank accounts. Anyway, you're probably better off talking to your accountant about this rather than looking for advice here. Bottom line is that you're going to have to 'launder' your dirty trading money somehow, a quick spin on the 'delicates' cycle is all that's necessary.

EyePeaSee - You're right about the divi's I had the same issue when i was a contractor.
You are contradicting yourself in that first paragraph.
It's sarcasm not contradiction. Most self employed people need to balance what's visible and what isn't, trading is just another cash-in-hand business.
You could always declare yourself to be a financial exchange trader (rather than a gambler) with the HMRC, do your accounts, pay your taxes and have a much more acceptable form of income. Any decent accountant should be able to sort the mortgage issue out. Rules are there to be exploited rather than broken. I'm no expert (clearly) because I don't have or want a mortage.
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