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On the verge of giving up

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Postby sydneysam » Tue May 05, 2009 11:02 am

neeeel wrote:I have been trading for over a year now, and dont seem to be getting any better. I have been on the betangel course, and had 2 sessions with a betangel mentor, but they dont seem to have made any difference to my trading, although I think I understand the principles.
The way I feel at the moment, I dont see how it is possible for anyone to make money trading.



I feel your pain neeeel.... i've been at it about a year fulltime and know i have to jump a few levels or move on. Staying at the same level of thinking and gradually losing all the time is no good.

The riddler said:
There is a DIFFERENCE between real money,traders money and spoof money.
One day sometime in the future when I decide to retire I will record a full days trading. Who knows some may learn from it, others wil not understand it and some will be pleased but think I(as in me) should be doing better. I've watched other videos but what's the saying
'you aint seen nothing yet'
PS I don'tplan to retire soon.

stop teasing!!

any help will be much appreciated riddler

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Postby GPalmer » Tue May 05, 2009 2:37 pm

I know exactly how you feel, 1 step forward & 20 steps back. Every day back to the pc, every day doing the same old thing. Every day knowing that even a chimp would get it right half the time but for some reason we get it wrong most of the time. Knowing somehow that it shouldn't be this tough. Knowing that we should know how to do it, knowing that it ain't rocket science.

I also was a programmer which logic and reasoning plays a major part it. I've been told that maybe I over analyse it. **** Knows.

All I know is thats its heartbreaking, draining and depressing.

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Postby TheRiddler » Tue May 05, 2009 3:39 pm

neeeel wrote:You lack confidence because everything you do when trading turns negative.
yes

What type of trader are you full or part-time?

I have been trading the horse racing markets nearly every day, so was full time i guess

Have you comprehensively watched/ studied the markets you trade?
I thought so, but I guess not, or I would have a better grasp of the markets


Are you interested in the markets you trade?
Not really no, I couldnt care if it was horses, dogs or cockroaches that were racing.


Have you tried to turn losses into smaller losses bit by bit until you break-even?
Do you mean if I have a big loss on 1 race, I keep trading on that race bit by bit to try and claw some losses back? If so, then yes I have managed to do that, but just as often I have made the losses into bigger losses, I guess I need to work on my frame of mind.

Is the capital you trade with needed for maybe future projects, in other words scared money?
Nope, the money is totally money to play around with, but I would still say its scared money even so, my psychological make up I guess

What was your mindset when you first thought about trading?
Wow, that sounds great, really easy, Ill never have to work again!!

When you read other peoples profits do you think wow that's amazing?
Yes

How persistent are you?
Very persistent I would say. Day after day I would have losses, and the next day I would get back up off the floor and have another go, day after day after day.

What in life are you good at already and have you worked out why you are good at it?
good question. I am good at fixing computers, computer programming, that sort of thing.why? I dont know.


If I were you I'd read the answers you gave to those questions again.
Trading full-time if not accomplished only places added pressure upon your 'narrow' shoulders to perform.

Working for a year will not allow you to have fully understood the horse racing markets you trade everyday. If people have told you otherwise then I'm afraid that's because they don't understand either.
I have invested a phenomenal amount of time and dedication.

If you are not interested in the markets you trade then will you be able to keep your enthusiasm levels high with all the HARD work before you?

Scared money needs to be deposited in the bank, although choose wisely as many are a bit 'dodgy'

Wow never have to work again. this aint no money tree you can walk upto at pluck at your convenience as you're well aware by now. You are going work harder for longer than anytime previous in order to succeed.

Do not dwell on other peoples profits because they are irrelevant to the situation in hand. Look at their profits and the markets they traded to reach those numbers and think, what are they doing correct and what are they doing incorrectly. If you have done the work/study you should be able to work out the limitations and possibilities for each market.

Very persistent but willing to throw your cards at the table after only one year.

I'm chuffed for you that your good at fixing computers/ programming but you need to work out why. Is it because you have a underlying interest in the subject?

It is possible to turn up to an unknown market and trade it but you will never trade it to the best of your potential. You do not have to commit money to a market whilst you learn how that market works, you can watch all the other silly devils do that for free.

Keep your money elsewhere until you have reached a point (theoretical because you will not be committing real money) where you are confident of reading a market. The point I made about scalping rings true because that is what happens everyday in the horse racing markets but because you don't understand these markets, you are fluffing your lines. You claw money back here and there more than likely through chance and then your luck runs out and bang, further in the red.

Have you checked a blog by leonthefixer called 'don't give up your day job' because you should. He's still in early development but his mindset is correct. Although he should be working even harder and those games he plays need throwing until he reaches his ultimate goal.

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Postby TheRiddler » Tue May 05, 2009 3:57 pm

sydneysam wrote:
neeeel wrote:I have been trading for over a year now, and dont seem to be getting any better. I have been on the betangel course, and had 2 sessions with a betangel mentor, but they dont seem to have made any difference to my trading, although I think I understand the principles.
The way I feel at the moment, I dont see how it is possible for anyone to make money trading.



I feel your pain neeeel.... i've been at it about a year fulltime and know i have to jump a few levels or move on. Staying at the same level of thinking and gradually losing all the time is no good.

The riddler said:
There is a DIFFERENCE between real money,traders money and spoof money.
One day sometime in the future when I decide to retire I will record a full days trading. Who knows some may learn from it, others wil not understand it and some will be pleased but think I(as in me) should be doing better. I've watched other videos but what's the saying
'you aint seen nothing yet'
PS I don'tplan to retire soon.

stop teasing!!

any help will be much appreciated riddler


Have you researched leonthefixer blog very useful.
Do you think I'm going to reveal the way I trade so that everybody can copy it if they so choose? Especially after all the hard work/ frustration undertaken in the past with no outside help.
I will make good on the video though once I'm through with it. Have you watched other videos by traders they are a good starting point although that's all they are.

I will not be posting forever as I'm busy so grab what you can whilst you can. I'll post here and there but if I were you, I'd read over and over again everything I've already wrote, there could be a nugget which may be hidden. I'm expanding into financials to an even greater degree so my work load there is high- as a matter of fact I'm working both the horse racing and financials as I type. Work,work,work and more work.

I will not give up on you but if I don't see your effort then why should I? Write further posts about what YOU are doing to help remedy the situation.

Yes I'm a difficult sod but I'm battle hardened.

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Postby TheRiddler » Tue May 05, 2009 4:05 pm

GPalmer wrote:I know exactly how you feel, 1 step forward & 20 steps back. Every day back to the pc, every day doing the same old thing. Every day knowing that even a chimp would get it right half the time but for some reason we get it wrong most of the time. Knowing somehow that it shouldn't be this tough. Knowing that we should know how to do it, knowing that it ain't rocket science.

I also was a programmer which logic and reasoning plays a major part it. I've been told that maybe I over analyse it. **** Knows.

All I know is thats its heartbreaking, draining and depressing.


Read all the above as it applies to you too and do not forget it is you and you alone who is making this draining. I'm sorry but you do not over-analyse, you simply do not know what you're doing.
Trading the markets is difficult, if you want an easy life go and work for betangel as a programmer.

I don't tell people untruths, I can be pretty blunt. But is it not better that way.

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Postby Bet Angel » Tue May 05, 2009 4:25 pm

"go and work for betangel as a programmer"

What's so easy about that? :lol:

Unlike other vendors, we all trade BTW, as do all the support staff! Best way to understand what is going on and how to implement things. You also get a lot of empathy with customers.

Personal opinion, but I think there is a lot more to be earnt by trading than coding. The Betfair market is measured in billions and you only need a small amount of that to make it worthwhile.

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Postby Squirtle » Tue May 05, 2009 4:32 pm

I think at all stages we have all felt like we can't make it work but it's now that you need to dig deep as there are lots out there making it work. It may just be one thing that's stopping you. Maybe record a video and pop it up on the board and we can help?

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Postby neeeel » Tue May 05, 2009 4:36 pm

thanks for all the replies, and thanks to the riddler for taking the time to answer my posts. I have taken some of your advice and am now going to spend the next few weeks just watching the markets and trying to learn. Although they seem random, maybe they arent as random as I think, the price will move for a reason, either people thinking a price is good value, or because of information( eg, horse starts sweating), theres probably other reasons that Im not aware of.
I will also read the blogs that you have suggested.
I know that a lot of my problems are my mental attitude and state of mind, something else I will have to work on.

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Postby GPalmer » Tue May 05, 2009 4:45 pm

Programming ain't easy, but my days of programming are well over (back in the old MS Dos days with dBase & Clipper.

Winning ways could come Neeel, could be just around the corner. We know there's numerous people making a living doing this (thats what I keep telling myself anyway) so absolutely no reason why you and I (and numerous others) shouldn't be one of them.

Maybe it takes a certain mindset. I'm sure it doesn't require knowledge in horseracing. But who knows?

There's a shed load of advice coming from people here. Clear your head, read & re-read it, I certainly will. And hopefully start again tomorrow afresh and see how it goes.

Good luck

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Postby andyfuller » Tue May 05, 2009 6:22 pm

Some good advice there Ridler - when you say about the Don't Give Up the day job blog:

Although he should be working even harder and those games he plays need throwing until he reaches his ultimate goal.


What do you mean by 'games'?

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