Peter's Blog Today - Murray Matrix

[Euler]

Though it's possible that does eventually happen as they all compete for a limited pool of liquidity.

[CaerMyrddin]

Tbh, I think we all have something against hoovering, but I think in the end we all do the same, find an edge (or plenty) and exploit it. Personally I'm more comfortable knowing I can look into a market, see how the money is being matched and have a reasonable idea of how it will move. But if I was sitting in a time related advantage all the time (although I do that too) I think I would be a bit anxious with the fact that it might instantly disappear (new rulings, new technology, etc).

Interestingly, you posted on the blog an anti siders strategy, so in the end many things that happen are simply a race to arms, or simply outsmarting others.

In the end, we are all taking someone else's money...

[andyfuller]

My personal opinion has changed on this issue over time.

I used to be against courtsiders (read oncourse for racing which is where my interest lies). But for the last few years I have changed and think they do nothing wrong.

As Peter has said he was able to go to the event and do some courtsiding himself. It is open to all (allowing for ticket allocations/capacity) as long as you have the capital to buy the tickets and get to the event.

My view of it changed when I found out about the use of VPS's, not for inrunning at first but for pre race trading on the horses. I found out about them prior to them becoming what I now call public knowledge, usually when something gets in the wider public domain the edge has gone to some extent. People were using them long before I found out about them not just for their bots but for the manual trading.

Why?

Because it gave a time advantage mainly. It meant if I and a VPS user both went for the same order the VPS user should always beat me to it. There are other advantages in using them but I think most users used them because of the reason I found out about them, they had near zero ping time to Betfair.

This imo is no different to courtsiding.

Like courtsiding, VPS's are now in the public domain but like the activity of courtsiding there was a good period where few were aware of its goings on.

Courtsiding has its disadvantages as well as advantages though, for example you can only be in one place at a time. You can't be oncourse at both AYR and Epsom at the same time, so you are limiting your opportunities from that view point.

What I do have an objection to is when Betfair or others claim the delay in placing bets protects punters from the delay in pictures. Yes it offers some degree of protection but it doesn't give enough protection. Horse racing is a great example, ATR is about 6 seconds behind live but the ir delay is just 1 second giving the oncourse people a 5 second advantage. So sometimes I end up backing a fallen horse but I am fully aware of the delay it is well publicised but I have chosen it is something I am willing to accept. Were BF to introduce a 6 second delay would I be happy? No, I don't want to see it, I am not 100% against there being no delay tbh.

You could extend the argument to other things, such as those on faster broadband, those parts of the country or countries closer to the BF servers, those with better PC's, those that use gaming pads etc etc. It is all in the main done to try and get your orders in quicker to give you a better advantage imo.

[LeTiss 4pm]

Good points, Andy

VPS is an excellent example, of how on one hand traders moan about courtsiders, then with the other hand are use clock beating techniques themselves

[mpendle]

I think it needs to be made clear that this doesn't just happen in Tennis and Horse Racing. It happens in every sport that is offered in play on Betfair. Cricket, Football, you name it.

The point is, is that if you didn't have courtsiders, you would still have people fighting over technology and feeds to get the information first so that they can profit from those people who even despite seeing the point is over decide to leave their bet or forget to cancel. There will always be people leaving bad value bets in the market and therefore someone will always be able to take that bet. If they aren't allowed to do this courtside, there will just be another arms race, just not courtside. Again one person will pay the money and be first to match these bets. Are they cheating, no. They are just profiting from other peoples mistakes, in the same way that anyone who is making money on Betfair is doing.

[gutuami]

There is no garden without its weeds