Gambling odds

Any markets not covered in the other boards
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JollyGreen
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Following my recent rants about online Poker I thought I would make a post for information on odds. I recall Jeff saying he couldn't fathom them, or something along those lines.

Well Card Player is a free site offering odds on hands for all the poker games. It is quite interesting for me as obviously I have come from a Horse Racing Gambling background. It all amounts to the same thing, you don't bet something at 2/1 if it should be 5/2 and you don't lay something at Evens if it should be 4/6

So in Poker you don't call a bet if you are getting 2/1 pot odds and you're a 3/1 shot to win!

As we all know there are punters in all forms of gambling some are shrewd some are mugs. Let's be honest, we are mainly traders on here but it is still gambling by definition but it is a more cerebral form.

I find most bad gamblers hold onto the belief that it's all luck. They do that as it means when they lose it can be put down to bad luck but when they win they claim "they knew it would win/happen"

I find in racing you will never convince a bad gambler he is wrong no matter how cogent your argument! I have tried to help friends who gamble to understand more about odds and how they work but to be honest it's like peeing into the wind. After a few attempts you just get fed-up and give in.

You've heard me mention on here the lemmings diving over the cliff edge. You know the ones, I said you buy one you get one free..trust me....oops! :oops: I digress! They back an "unlucky loser" and they back it next time and the time after that. It never wins so they give up and then they bemoan their LUCK when it hoses up at 25/1! It's the same when they watch a 5/1 winner hard held in an egg and spoon race. They didn't back it that time but when it next runs in a much hotter contest they only remember its easy egg and spoon victory and because it's now 5/4 surely it's a certainty. Naturally it is tailed off so they shout "fix" or "typical of my luck" and curse anyone associated with the horse! I have a simple saying "if you didn't go to the wedding then don't go to the funeral!"

Here is a screen shot of a poker game, I am playing Omaha. Pre flop I am around 67% to win the hand should it run its course. Post flop I am an underdog and dependant on the size of my opponents bet I may have to fold as I am 7/4 and the pot may ofifer less. My opponent checked which is strange when you consider he a favourite with the straight draw. I have a lot of cards (outs) to improve my hand and his check gives me a free card which comes the 2clubs. That means I am favourite now and about 2/5 to win. Surprisingly well actually it's unsurprising that at this stage he chooses to bet and bet large! I have to raise at this point and he went for it. He is now around a 9/4 shot but his odds both pot and implied are all wrong. The river was a club and I won the pot. He then starts moaning because I caught a lucky river card. Like I said about bad gamblers they don't look at the odds available and bet when they're in their favour.

I feel if you study odds and book percentages (including over-rounds) it will give a better insight into how markets form. You tend to get a "feel" for how high or low a price will go without the book going crazy.
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Iron
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JollyGreen wrote:I recall Jeff saying he couldn't fathom them, or something along those lines.
Not sure I said that. :)

I think what I said was that a poker bot can calculate odds better than me. I was terrible at mental arithmatic at school, so a bot would absolutely pepper me! :lol:

Jeff
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JollyGreen
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Sorry Jeff, I was not trying to undermine you, I just recalled something about odds and being unable to compete.
Iron
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JollyGreen wrote:Sorry Jeff, I was not trying to undermine you.
I didn't think you were, I was just being pedantic. :)

Jeff
Last edited by Cerberus on Fri May 03, 2013 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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L.o.S
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Interesting post, I love the concepts that lie beneath odds, it's strange to think that before the trading game existed you had to play horse racing like you've explained poker, backing an evens shot @ 2/1 and so on. The strike rate would mentally ruin me!

Might have to get into poker and start playing the percentages, although I saw your rants about what is basically rigged poker and thought twice!
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JollyGreen
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L.o.S wrote:Interesting post, I love the concepts that lie beneath odds, it's strange to think that before the trading game existed you had to play horse racing like you've explained poker, backing an evens shot @ 2/1 and so on. The strike rate would mentally ruin me!

Might have to get into poker and start playing the percentages, although I saw your rants about what is basically rigged poker and thought twice!
I have switched both poker rooms and game. I went through my hand histories and realised my bad beats were awful but I didn't really play that bad. Yes, I made errors that cost me but I'm not perfect. I just played Omaha PL in two tournaments over 4 hours each. I was 4th in one but was blinded and anted off because I had a doctor's appointment and so I left the table as a big chip leader and came back to be 4th with just 7 players left. I played a good game but I did lose to a very good player who admitted he hit the miracle card on the river. Bar that loss I wouldn've been at least 3rd.

In the second one I actually won it. 320 players and good ole Jolly Green with a spinning head and blurred vision managed to win. I reckon I didn't see some cards properly :lol: :lol:
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JollyGreen
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I'll tell you something guys, there is nothing like having the stone cold nuts and having a maniac with a big stack just raising and re-raising in the hope you will fold! :lol:

How can you fold? It would be like winning the lottery and then setting fire to your lottery ticket...not a good idea :D

I just hit the nuts on the turn with Aces over Kings and had TWO, yes TWO maniacs raising and re-raising me. They sure did bleat when the hands were shown!!
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JollyGreen
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I played 5 tournaments today and finished 1st 1st 4th 5th and 7th.

The last result was unreal as I was dealt the premium hand in Omaha Hi and the AAKK double suited. I have played poker on and off for about 40 years from a boy with my family to live tournaments and online. I have never been dealt that hand before. In fact I have also never seen it dealt to another player. The reason is it's 50,000/1 to be dealt that hand!

Now this almost made me cry but here goes :? :? :?

I am dealt A spades K spades A diamonds K diamonds which is any players dream. I was in 4th position at the time with 8 players at the table. There were 4 solid players amongst which I would hope to include myself. We had two absolute lunatics and a guy that didn;t really seem to understand what he was doing. I say that because I beat him on one pot and he claimed to have 4 of a kind to my NUT straight. He actually typed "Hey I had 4 9s!" He didn't realise you can only use two of the four cards dealt to you to make the best 5 card hand! Now this is even more amazing because we were 5 hours into the tournament and he was in 3rd place! He had been playing hands as if it were Texas Holdem and he managed to win through to the final table! :shock: :lol: :shock: :lol: BTW, nobody told him about it and he obviously kept playing the same way!

If you are dealt a top hand you just pray that you can get the pot built up by raising and get a caller at the least or hopefully someone who will re-raise you. Well this was my lucky day as I was in the big blind and he was the dealer. In Poker the dealer is the best position as you get to act last after the flop. It is also a position where players raise against the blinds as the prize money looms large. So this fish, to coin a poker phrase raised 4 x BB (big blind). The SB (small blind) was short on chips so he folded. I was in 4th place with around 19,500 chips and the fish has 21,000. It was like all your Christmases had come early and at once! I re-raised, he re-raised. The max raise you can make is the value of the pot but at these levels of the tournament, trust me it soon builds up. I was all in which is perfect given my hole cards. I nearly choked when he showed 4 5 6 7 :shock: :shock: :shock: It may suprise you but depsite having the best starting hand available I was only a 1/2 fav!!

The flop was dealt. Js 8d Ts :D :D

That now makes me 2/13 fav!! :D :D

The turn was Jd :D :D :D :D :D

I am now 95% or approx 1/19 to win the hand

River 9h :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

He could only hit 9h (hearts) or 9c (clubs) that was just two outs and that miracle coupled with bad play cost me $1200!!!

I must be honest I was in a state of shock. I could not figure out why anyone would raise and raise with that hand. Then it dawned on me.....he was still playing in the belief he could play all of his hole cards!! I wished I had pointed it out to him earlier!

So I typed in the chat "How on earth could you keep raising with 4567?" His reply confirmed my suspicion he was expecting to play all of his hole cards because he said "Stop moaning man I had you beat from the start"

I didn't need to reply because someone else did it. They typed "WTF you hit a 2 outer to beat the best hand there is"

This is where it gets ridiculous but very funny! He typed in the chat "Duh I had a str8 to his 2pair"

Two people responded with "WTF" "are you reta@r3d" to which he replied......wait for it

"I had a lock on the hand the river just made it better"

Well I have to laugh or else I would cry!

EDIT: technically I finished 8th but as 7th and 8th won Nada I was tied 7th.
Will Sharpe
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JG, sorry for your loss but I just wanna compliment you on your writing!

It's always detailed and to the point! Even at times like this when your vision is blurred. Hat's off :!:
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JollyGreen
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Will Sharpe wrote:JG, sorry for your loss but I just wanna compliment you on your writing!

It's always detailed and to the point! Even at times like this when your vision is blurred. Hat's off :!:
Wow! Thank you that has made my day, I really mean that, I am touched by your kind words!

I just went though my games today and I reckon I played the best poker of my life; perhaps it is the double vision!!

I made one really stupid mistake by pushing hard on a pot against a very bad player. I just could not believe he had a good hand based on his stats and playing style. It was tight but he won a big pot which did set me back. I still made the money though!

Thanks again, I hope you have a profitable weekend in whatever you do!

JG
bobalski
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JollyGreen wrote:I just hit the nuts on the turn with Aces over Kings and had TWO, yes TWO maniacs raising and re-raising me. They sure did bleat when the hands were shown!!
...and they are probably now on their favourite message board complaining that online poker is rigged.

Sound familiar??
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gazuty
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Well done JG.

When your vision clears (and I know I keep banging on about this) but I really think you would enjoy the book "The Signal and the Noise" by Nate Silver.

If you, Euler, Mugsy and Nate teamed up, I'm sure the PC could be 99% and you'd still be profitable.
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JollyGreen
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I was chatting to Peter this morning about my ongoing health issues and the conversation moved into my recent foray into the poker tables. I sent him this screen shot of a player I was up against at the table.

In Poker a bad player is known as a fish; this player can only be called Fish Food. Now I am not trying to be derogatory but it is hard not to be! This surely has to be your classic addicted gambler. I would hope that anyone with a modicum of sense would realise quite quickly that Poker is not for them when they show these stats!
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JollyGreen
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Well they say lightning doesn't strike twice but unbelievably I was dealt AKAK double suited again today. Mind you I lost again so I am beginning to think it's overrated! :lol:

I found a player today who has lost close to $50K :shock: :shock: :shock:
Iron
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I once worked with a guy who claimed to have lost £750K over the years on Betfair.

One one occasion, this guy owed a few K to a loan shark of the type who breaks your legs if you don't pay up. My colleague was given an advance on his wages to pay off the debt (he was an extremely successful sales rep), but the idiot bet it on a horse that couldn't lose (but did!).

Jeff
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