Is it luck or skill?

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JollyGreen
Posts: 2046
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:06 am

This is not a post based on specifically on trading, it is more about the similarities of how people approach things like trading, gambling or poker before they venture in. I just wanted to share my thoughts on the thinking, or rather the lack of it that seems to occur when playing poker games online. I would appreciate it if anyone else has similar situations they are willing to share.

As most of you know I am struggling at the moment with ill health. I started playing online poker more to relieve the boredom and to stimulate my brain. I also want help retrain both my eyes and my hand/eye co-ordination. I am one of those people who will not do anything by half. If I do something I want to do so to the best of my ability.

I trawled the internet and found a decent site that could provide stats and trends on my opponents. My thinking was simple, if I could see how they previously played I could then look to exploit their habits to my advantage. Before I go any further, I am not trying at this stage to exploit them or be aggressive, I am looking to see if this works; if it does then I will exploit them! :lol: :lol:

I last played Omaha and Omaha Hi/Lo about 10 years ago and even when I looked for games about 6-7 years ago it wasn't really a popular online game. Basically Texas Holdem in both limit pot limit and No Limit had exploded onto the world scene. This took a blow when the US government managed to sneak in a ban on online gambling. I will try and cover that in another post later. Omaha was still a popular game among the professional players but online it was very much the black sheep.

I wrote on here about some crazy hands that had me almost pulling my hair out. They were 95% Holdem and 5% Omaha. Holdem is the easier game to master but it it is also the game that attracts players with less skill. How hard can it be to get two cards in your hand and then choose three of the five community cards to make the best 5 card hand? A lot of players do not even think about their holding before they hit the call button or even the raise button. They simply want to play and many do so in the belief it is all luck and they have as much chance as the next person. I think if they looked at some of the charts I have posted showing huge losses, they might change their mind. Actually, ignore that last part as they will never change their mind.

You can compare this to trading. I sometimes sit with people and they are watching me trade. I can almost feel them fidgeting in their seat and eventually they say "you're not doing anything, why not?" I try and assure them it is often better to do nothing unless you see an opportunity but they usually reply "couldn't you just lay the favourite or 2nd favourite in case they drift?" They cannot wait to get into the market but experience has taught me it usually leads to losses.

In poker you have the same thought process and players will participate in a hand with absolute junk. Of course they can get lucky and when they do it simply reinforces their view that playing any two cards is acceptable. If they lose then it was bad luck not bad play and so the cycle continues.

I think this happens with trading as people jump in, get it right and think they've cracked it. Sadly, they can't repeat it because they didn't know what they did in the first place. I know I did it but I realised quite quickly that I was going nowhere fast.

With online poker there is a real chance at the moment to exploit the lack of skill in Omaha games. I am still stunned at the amount of players who think it is like Holdem and actually play it accordingly. Last night I watched two players on my table as they raised and re-raised each other until all of the chips were in the middle. I could hardly believe my eyes when they turned over JJJJ and TTTT. For those of you who are unfamiliar with Omaha you can only play two of your four hole cards. So whilst 4 of a kind in Holdem is an excellent hand it is comprised of 2 hole cards and 2 of the community cards. You could have 1 of the four in your hand and hit 3 of the community cards in either form of the game and you'd be happy but it doesn't happen very often. Therefore, holding 4 of a kind in Omaha is junk as there are no more cards for you to hit! Well no more of the same number so you have to hope for a straight, flush or perhaps full house.

A couple of players were asking why they played those hands and each of them said "I had 4 of a kind" but they had nothing more than a pair of Jacks and Tens respectively!

This first became apparent to me when a player called a premium hand with what he believed to be four of kind and then moaned because he didn't win. I laughed at the time and thought it was just a one off. I then lost to the same player when I had the premium AKAK double suited and lost to a junk hand that made a straight.

Well last night and today I have played a few tournaments and have found lots of players calling raises or making raises with Holdem hands. Thankfully on about 10-15 occasions it worked in my favour as they called with good Holdem hands which were poor Omaha hands. My hand which looked innocuous to them was much stronger in Omaha and I won the pot.

So I am wondering why anyone would start playing a game for real money, no matter how small, without learning the rules of the game? Also, why would they part with hard earned money without studying how to play it?

Are they just another form of compulsive gambler? Are they lazy and cannot be bothered to study/learn it? Do they simply believe it is all a game of luck? I would imagine there are plenty of people who will enter trading the same way but would hope their diminishing returns and bank would soon make them realise there is more involved than lady luck?

Have any of you come across similar situations? I would like to read you thoughts if you are willing to share.

Thanks

JG
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

JollyGreen wrote: I think this happens with trading as people jump in, get it right and think they've cracked it. Sadly, they can't repeat it because they didn't know what they did in the first place.
I'm sure that's a trap many people fall into. Equally, I imagine that many people find a winning system, but -

- Don't have the discipline to apply it properly over time.
- Abandon it after a few failed trades.
- Get bored, experiment with various approaches, and soon forget about the method that made them money.
- Stake more than is sensible (perhaps to get back at the market after a loss)

A famous financials trader once commented that he could publish his trading rules in the newspaper, but no-one would follow them. Similarly, I would hazard that the vast majority of people who attended Peter's course are no longer applying the techniques he taught them...
JollyGreen wrote:Are they just another form of compulsive gambler? Are they lazy and cannot be bothered to study/learn it?
Life is nothing but a series of bets, when you think about it. Us humans suffer from indiscipline and all sorts of psychological biases, so it's not surprising that most people don't make very good bets (inside or outside of the casino/gambling site)...

Jeff
bluiboy
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:46 am

Jolly Green Wrote;
So I am wondering why anyone would start playing a game for real money, no matter how small, without learning the rules of the game? Also, why would they part with hard earned money without studying how to play it?

Well, I'm fairly new to trading....started Jan this year and having downloaded Bet Angel started using in practice mode but after 3 days found that I was frustrated at making a profit but not actually collecting the cash. It was easy to up the stakes and make decent sums because I was more relaxed and calm about the odd loss.
So on the 4th day went live and up until 2 weeks ago was losing almost every day, trying out many different strategies, styles, stake levels etc. etc. but ultimately losing trades. What I will say is that trading in practice and trading live are totally different from a mindset point of view and a loss can hit hard....but slowly I have learnt to accept the losses and move on and now I am finding after a break even point I am now starting to make a profit. Like me, a lot of people new to something just want to get started and get on with it. Rules of the game..research...data....whatever else there is to find out is time consuming and the best lessons learned can be from mistakes. Yes I have lost cash along the way but I have learn't well from my mistakes and sometimes to much info is a burden to people starting a new venture because you don't know what info to follow as you have no experience. I guess Peter's course is the answer to that one, but personally I need a long time to take on board data and info so decided not to attend just yet and just go for it. This may be why other people do the same in other money backed games/gambling events and of course we are all different which is what allows the more persistent of us to exploit..er... I mean trade off the back of other less committed people in this world. This is just my insight to why I parted with some money, but saw it as an investment, just like any business and now starting to see a return.
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

Something worth remembering is that there are four possible outcomes to any trade (apart from breaking even via scratching):

A. A small loss
B. A small win
C. A big loss
D. A big win

You'll get loads of As and Bs. But if you can make sure that you get very few Cs but plenty of Ds (by cutting your losses and letting your profits run), you stand a good chance of making a long-term profit...

Jeff
bluiboy
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:46 am

JollyGreen wrote:JollyGreen wrote:
Are they just another form of compulsive gambler? Are they lazy and cannot be bothered to study/learn it?
I think your correct......just lazy is the reason for most gamblers/traders who are looking for a quick fix and then because is doesn't happen overnight they decide it is a poor way to continue and blame the system and not themselves!
Perseverance is the key, which in turn builds knowledge and confidence...some things need to be 'Mastered' to achieve decent results but that can also be achieved through trial and error as well as research and study or all combined together. Either way if you are the type who seems to do well straight away then more than likely it is LUCK!
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L.o.S
Posts: 166
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:05 pm

I think trading will yield profits to those who refuse to give up and continue to learn. I am the same as you blue in that I started properly trading in January, except I went full time straight away using arbing to cover my ass.

When I was using practice mode I was taking £50+ a day, and suddenly when I took it out a loss every day. It's all about psychology! As soon as it was my real money involved I realised how little I knew.
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