Premium Charge question

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Emmson
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Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:47 pm

I'm assuming (though I have never payed close attention) you get your back matched above evens as no one is taking the evens or 1.99 on offer right now.
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Derek27
Posts: 23476
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:44 am
Location: UK

Emmson wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:35 am
I'm assuming (though I have never payed close attention) you get your back matched above evens as no one is taking the evens or 1.99 on offer right now.
They don't appear to be taking anything with just £53 matched, which I think equates to £26.50. I can't imagine anyone laying a coin-toss at 2.02!
kiwidude
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:52 am

In the above example would I be backing the the toss @ $1.99 and laying it @ $2.02 for a small loss?

Lets say I backed the toss for $1000 @ $1.99 I would then lay the toss @ $2.02 for $985.15 for a guaranteed net loss of $14.85 according to the lay calculator I use.

Is that the correct method for doing so? And if so how much commission would this generate?
Wildly
Posts: 229
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:31 am
Location: Australia

kiwidude wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:22 am
Is that the correct method for doing so? And if so how much commission would this generate?
Very little.

If you are trying to generate commission then don't back and lay on the one market. Do one or the other.

Your break-even strategy does not need to break even on any one market, just overall.

You could look to complimentary markets, which you mentioned for soccer. Otherwise just markets where you are getting near to or better than true value then the sum of all your activity on those markets should break even.

If you are in Premium Charge territory or heading for it, then backing or laying at or even slightly better than long-term true value price should be within your capabilities.
kiwidude
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:52 am

Wildly wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:11 am
kiwidude wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:22 am
Is that the correct method for doing so? And if so how much commission would this generate?
Very little.

If you are trying to generate commission then don't back and lay on the one market. Do one or the other.

Your break-even strategy does not need to break even on any one market, just overall.

You could look to complimentary markets, which you mentioned for soccer. Otherwise just markets where you are getting near to or better than true value then the sum of all your activity on those markets should break even.

If you are in Premium Charge territory or heading for it, then backing or laying at or even slightly better than long-term true value price should be within your capabilities.
Thanks for your reply, if I understand you correctly this strategy would basically rely on approximately 50% of bets winning and 50% losing, is that correct? I'm guessing there would be quite a bit of variance in this strategy though? For example backing something at true value of $1.70 odds is a lot different to laying something @ $4.40 odds true value, if I were eligible for PC I still may get slammed some weeks with the variance.

If you could provide a real world example that would be great, I do apologise for my ignorance but this stuff is quite hard for me to grasp without actual examples lol.
Wildly
Posts: 229
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:31 am
Location: Australia

Yes, you've grasped what I mean.

If you need to eliminate wide variance you could apply your generate commission strategy on or near even money chances. Or just vary your stakes at different prices.

If you're not already in PC territory and are ensuring you never get there then variance week to week is more an issue of bank you have available for this strategy and your comfort that you are around true value prices.
m4rkwatson
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:22 pm

I have just begun to enter into Premium Charge territory, which I'm taking as a good thing, but am wondering if it should make my choice of Betfair rewards any different. When they brought in the change to the rewards system I wasn't hitting the Premium Charge benchmark but was expecting to make profit, so I chose the 2% commission option - but if they are going to take anything up to 20% anyway then does it mean that you may as well go for the largest commission based reward and take all of the BOG, etc benefits if all they are going to do is take as much commission and more? I'd be interested in views.

Edit, I've just seen the other thread, thanks
sa7med
Posts: 800
Joined: Thu May 18, 2017 8:01 am

m4rkwatson wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:03 am
I have just begun to enter into Premium Charge territory, which I'm taking as a good thing, but am wondering if it should make my choice of Betfair rewards any different. When they brought in the change to the rewards system I wasn't hitting the Premium Charge benchmark but was expecting to make profit, so I chose the 2% commission option - but if they are going to take anything up to 20% anyway then does it mean that you may as well go for the largest commission based reward and take all of the BOG, etc benefits if all they are going to do is take as much commission and more? I'd be interested in views.

Edit, I've just seen the other thread, thanks
Because of the way commission is calculated you'd be better off in the 2% category
Derek27 wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:56 am
sa7med wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:55 am
Just got the email. Correct me if im wrong but wouldn't those paying PC be better off with the 8% category? Considering you'd be topped up to 20% anyway, only at least you'd be getting some, although paltry, rewards?
Here's a little spreadsheet - you'll find you're better off on 2% because you only acutally get credited for half the commission you pay. Annoyingly, the guy who lost the money gets credited for the other half. ;)

Bear in mind that if this plan comes to an end and you switch back to the standard 5%, your points and commission discount will have slipped away.
There's an excel sheet posted by Derek on this thread (viewtopic.php?f=15&t=19507&hilit=commission&start=30) that could help you calculate it.
lsmiles
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:59 am

Hi all,
Not wanting to start a new thread for a basic question I figured this topic would be the most appropriate to post in, albeit it's been a while since anyone posted.

I've been through Betfair's explanation of PC and there is one part I'm not certain about which is pasted below.

Each week the customers who meet all the conditions set out above will be charged the lesser of:
The difference between 20% of the previous week’s gross profits and the total charges generated during the week; and
The difference between 20% of gross profits and the total charges generated during the lifetime of the account.

So for example let's say I have $50,000 in gross lifetime profit, have paid 3% ($1,500) in commission and charges and have just crossed the 250 market threshold, therefore qualifying for PC.
If I make say $5,000 gross and again 3% - $150 commission in the week immediately after crossing the 250 markets what will my PC charge for the first week be? Is it 17% of $5,000 and so topping the weeks commission up to 20% or is it a retrospective charge on my lifetime earnings to bring total commission paid up to 20% and therefore a 17% charge on $55,000?

We can ignore the 1,000 allowance for the above example.

Thanks
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Derek27
Posts: 23476
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:44 am
Location: UK

lsmiles wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 1:36 am
Hi all,
Not wanting to start a new thread for a basic question I figured this topic would be the most appropriate to post in, albeit it's been a while since anyone posted.

I've been through Betfair's explanation of PC and there is one part I'm not certain about which is pasted below.

Each week the customers who meet all the conditions set out above will be charged the lesser of:
The difference between 20% of the previous week’s gross profits and the total charges generated during the week; and
The difference between 20% of gross profits and the total charges generated during the lifetime of the account.

So for example let's say I have $50,000 in gross lifetime profit, have paid 3% ($1,500) in commission and charges and have just crossed the 250 market threshold, therefore qualifying for PC.
If I make say $5,000 gross and again 3% - $150 commission in the week immediately after crossing the 250 markets what will my PC charge for the first week be? Is it 17% of $5,000 and so topping the weeks commission up to 20% or is it a retrospective charge on my lifetime earnings to bring total commission paid up to 20% and therefore a 17% charge on $55,000?

We can ignore the 1,000 allowance for the above example.

Thanks
As the rules say, it would be the lesser of the two, 17% of $5000. Bear in mind it's not commission paid that's used for the calculation but implied commission. That's half the commission paid plus 3% of your losses.

Also bear in mind it would be an incredible feat to become eligible for PC and only pay 3% commission. You would need a very high win/loss ratio.
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ShaunWhite
Posts: 9731
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

It's not retrospective as you'll have been paying pc once you're in profit, you can't be 50k up and then start paying, and Derek is right about the weekly commission/weekly gross. Depending on what you do that might be over 20% anyway. But as one very successful trader I know says, if the commission you're pay bothers you, then earn more. And that's someone paying iro £1000 a day.
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Derek27
Posts: 23476
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:44 am
Location: UK

ShaunWhite wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 12:17 pm
It's not retrospective as you'll have been paying pc once you're in profit, you can't be 50k up and then start paying, and Derek is right about the weekly commission/weekly gross. Depending on what you do that might be over 20% anyway. But as one very successful trader I know says, if the commission you're pay bothers you, then earn more. And that's someone paying iro £1000 a day.
He's talking about making £50K first and then reaching the 250 market criteria. I took the question as hypothetical but if you could win that quickly it would take a few losing weeks or weeks where you pay more than 20% commission for your lifetime commission to get up to 20%.
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ShaunWhite
Posts: 9731
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

Derek27 wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 1:43 pm
He's talking about making £50K first and then reaching the 250 market criteria. I took the question as hypothetical
I think you were right to. And if you could average £200 a race then fees wouldn't be as much of a problem as choosing the colourway for your next Ferrari.
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