Another Premium Charge question!

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acecard
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Euler wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:40 am
Betfair top up that 10% to 40%. But if you can hit 2% commission you effectively get a rebate of 1% or 33% of commision paid. Confusing I know but worth considering.
Could you point me in the direction of the T&Cs that talk about this rebate? Really want to get my noggin' around this!
acecard
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PDC wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:34 pm
It gets worse inplay not better.
Hmmmm.......that's no good at all! OK I think acceptance is the only way forward on this one!
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Derek27
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acecard wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:34 pm
Euler wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:40 am
Betfair top up that 10% to 40%. But if you can hit 2% commission you effectively get a rebate of 1% or 33% of commision paid. Confusing I know but worth considering.
Could you point me in the direction of the T&Cs that talk about this rebate? Really want to get my noggin' around this!
http://www.betfair.com/aboutUs/Betfair. ... /#charges6
spreadbetting
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acecard wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:34 pm
Euler wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:40 am
Betfair top up that 10% to 40%. But if you can hit 2% commission you effectively get a rebate of 1% or 33% of commision paid. Confusing I know but worth considering.
Could you point me in the direction of the T&Cs that talk about this rebate? Really want to get my noggin' around this!
There's aren't any t&c's for the 'rebate', Euler is just stating you effectively get a rebate due to the way PC is calculated using a set percentage of 3% for implied commission on losses. If you wish to look at ways to lessen the effect or reduce PC you need to look exactley how it's calculated and if you can incorporate anyhting within your current betting strategy to lessen the effects. Here's the PC betfar charges page

http://www.betfair.com/aboutUs/Betfair. ... /#charges6
spreadbetting
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PDC wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:04 pm
spreadbetting wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:17 pm
You'll find a lot of people will churn like for like prices simply to maintain a 10%+ overall comm rate so they stay in the 40% band rather than pay 60% for a sub 5% account. Plus there are additional benefits like getting a higher discount off your base rate etc.
Isn't the activity done largely by automation as opposed to manual trading? The amounts required must be considerable for many.

It is a shame nothing ever came of the recent trial Betfair ran which you were part of where you get a weekly personal allowance, think it was £500 PC in the trial?
Depends what you're doing and how good you are with automation I suppose but there are plenty of sports where you can churn thru large amounts.

I never even had a follow up call regarding the PC trial which is a pity as to me that would be the sensible way forward and much fairer to the players who've been around a while and helped Betfair promote their business in the first place.
acecard
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So, after going through the charges page and getting confused multiple times, this is what I can surmise......I'm sure I have got some, if not most of this completely wrong, so if I have, please slap me and send me to my room! :lol:

1. It would seem (for people starting to think about this early on in their account life) that a decent way to minimise the effects of the PC long term would be to churn from the start, and on a manageable weekly basis so that you can scale accordingly and always maintain your commission amount. If you wait til you are in a large overall profit, you will be looking at quite a large amount of churning to make up the deficit. If managed this way, then the level of churning need not be so high as to need automation as it could potentially be done in a few relatively large bets on some weekly games. For example:

You win £1000 this week, have paid £50 in comms through your trading and have a bank of £10000; you need to make up a further £150 in comms through churning, meaning you need 1 win of £3000 (assuming 5% comm and ignoring implied comm for the sake of simplicity), or 2 wins of £1500, or 5 wins of £600 etc. You easily have the bank to do this, and don't need to spend too much effort doing it on loads of markets in a week. Doing this weekly and scaling accordingly will mean that you maintain your commission level. Even if you got to the point of earning 5 figures a month, this would be maintainable without too much work, using say big football matches on the weekend. Of course, you could automate this if you really wanted.

2. It would also seem that you are better off shooting to generate all your commission through churning, rather than waiting for BF to make up the difference as PC because all the calculations are based off of generated commission, not total charges (which is where the PC would be included). So, if total generated commission was 5%, I would pay 15% PC, but my generated comm would still only be 5%. If my total generated commission was 20% (through churning), I would pay no PC, generated comm would be 20%, and I would have the same net profit at the end.

3. You are also better off churning up to 20% rather than having BF take PC up to 20% because you will earn your baseline commission discount much quicker (PC deductions do not seem to be used in calculating your discount as it is based on generated commission, not total charges).

Then, when (or IF!) one got to the higher rates of PC, one would already be sitting at the lower 40% band as your commissions will have consistently been at 20%, and you should have accumulated enough BF points to get into the 2% baseline commission bracket that Euler was referring to. At that point, you could scale back churning to maintain just over 10% to stay at the 40% level and receive the rebate. This would put you at about 27% total commission in the higher bracket, taking into account the rebate.

How much of that did I get completely wrong?! :lol:
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PDC
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To complete your write up though I think it would be good if a few example churns. I don't think I have ever seen anyone do this, I am not sure why there seems such reluctance to give actual real world examples.
Last edited by PDC on Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Derek27
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acecard wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:15 pm
You win £1000 this week, have paid £50 in comms through your trading and have a bank of £10000; you need to make up a further £150 in comms through churning, meaning you need 1 win of £3000 (assuming 5% comm and ignoring implied comm for the sake of simplicity), or 2 wins of £1500, or 5 wins of £600 etc.
Winning another £3000 won't solve the problem because you would pay PC on that!

What you need to do is lose money, but win it back on a parallel market to break even.

Assuming you pay 5% commission and win all the time, only half the commission you pay counts towards PC as implied commission resulting in 17.5% PC on top of the commission you pay. This means that you have to lose about £81 for each £100 you win to avoid PC altogether, but just reducing your profit to loss ratio can reduce PC.
spreadbetting
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PDC wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:51 pm
To complete your write up though I think it would be good if a few example churns. I don't think I have ever seen anyone do this, I am not sure why there seems such reluctance to give actual real world examples.
Don't think there's any reluctance people just have their own particular markets they may churn through that throw up edges now and then.

Many sports will have outcomes that are effectively the same thing, if we take a pre off football match for example we can play off a 0-0 correct score back bet against many markets in the hope of finding a small arb or at worst a break even bet to generate comms. We can arb it against the Over/Under 0.5, Goal Lines, next goal you'll find most sports have derivative markets we can play either dripping in running or pre off. I know someone who plays the Asian markets against match odds simply because the volumes you get thru those markets at reasonable odds.

The problem for the 5%'ers is that they really need to be looking to get arbs because on a break even bet they'll only be credited 4% in comms when they actually paid 5%. A 3% comm payer will pay the 3% whereas a 2% payer will be credited with 2.5% so actually makes money with break even arbing up to their likely PC charges
Last edited by spreadbetting on Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dallas
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Since the introduction of Stored values to advanced automation, it's now easy to link up markets with a simple bot just to churn away x-market
acecard
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Derek27 wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:13 pm
acecard wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:15 pm
You win £1000 this week, have paid £50 in comms through your trading and have a bank of £10000; you need to make up a further £150 in comms through churning, meaning you need 1 win of £3000 (assuming 5% comm and ignoring implied comm for the sake of simplicity), or 2 wins of £1500, or 5 wins of £600 etc.
Winning another £3000 won't solve the problem because you would pay PC on that!

What you need to do is lose money, but win it back on a parallel market to break even.

Assuming you pay 5% commission and win all the time, only half the commission you pay counts towards PC as implied commission resulting in 17.5% PC on top of the commission you pay. This means that you have to lose about £81 for each £100 you win to avoid PC altogether, but just reducing your profit to loss ratio can reduce PC.
Yeah, sorry I should've mentioned that when I wrote this, in my head I was thinking about churning with a breakeven strategy, so you win 3000, lose 3000. Not just gambling.
acecard
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Could someone please explain the rule "any win that makes up over 50% of your lifetime profits will not be used as part of the PC calculation"?

So, if I have profits for the week so far of £100 and I win £60 in one hit, clearly my PC for the week will only be calculated using the £100 gross profit. However, what happens after this? Are my gross profits now considered to be £160 for the week and therefore for a win to be excluded, it would be based on the £160, i.e. the win would have to be over £80. I'm talking about within the same week.

Any feedback much appreciated!
LinusP
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acecard wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:56 pm
Could someone please explain the rule "any win that makes up over 50% of your lifetime profits will not be used as part of the PC calculation"?

So, if I have profits for the week so far of £100 and I win £60 in one hit, clearly my PC for the week will only be calculated using the £100 gross profit. However, what happens after this? Are my gross profits now considered to be £160 for the week and therefore for a win to be excluded, it would be based on the £160, i.e. the win would have to be over £80. I'm talking about within the same week.

Any feedback much appreciated!
It’s lifetime, not per week.
acecard
Posts: 85
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LinusP wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:11 pm
acecard wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:56 pm
Could someone please explain the rule "any win that makes up over 50% of your lifetime profits will not be used as part of the PC calculation"?

So, if I have profits for the week so far of £100 and I win £60 in one hit, clearly my PC for the week will only be calculated using the £100 gross profit. However, what happens after this? Are my gross profits now considered to be £160 for the week and therefore for a win to be excluded, it would be based on the £160, i.e. the win would have to be over £80. I'm talking about within the same week.

Any feedback much appreciated!
It’s lifetime, not per week.
Yes, but what if your weekly profits were your lifetime profits?

£100 is a bad example, but I was just using arbitrary values. The context would be that you managed to arb out of BF successfully each week so that each week you always maintained a negative/minimal lifetime profit value but then had the occasional large win on the BF side.

Thanks
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Derek27
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acecard wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:56 pm
Could someone please explain the rule "any win that makes up over 50% of your lifetime profits will not be used as part of the PC calculation"?

So, if I have profits for the week so far of £100 and I win £60 in one hit, clearly my PC for the week will only be calculated using the £100 gross profit. However, what happens after this? Are my gross profits now considered to be £160 for the week and therefore for a win to be excluded, it would be based on the £160, i.e. the win would have to be over £80. I'm talking about within the same week.

Any feedback much appreciated!
The rule is there to exclude recreational players who lose but just happen to get a winning accumulator that wins £100K. It wouldn't be fair to take 20 grand of them.
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