Higher rate premium charge

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jamesedwards
Posts: 2234
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:16 pm

Good evening all.

Not reached the heights of the higher rate PC fun yet, but aim to be soon.

I can't figure out from the BF terms (pasted below for info) whether the weekly higher rate charge is offset by weekly commission generated in the same way as it does with the standard PC?

So in an example where my lifetime commission generated floats around 20% of gross profit. I pay very little PC up to £250k, but when I pass the £250k mark then do I move to 40% charge or 20% (40% higher rate PC - 20% commission generated)? Para 9.7.5 in the terms suggest that it will be the latter I think?

9.7 †Premium Charges at higher rates
9.7.1 Higher rates of Premium Charge will apply to the very small number of customers (less than 0.1%) that satisfy the following conditions over the lifetime of their account:

Lifetime net profits*** exceed £250,000
Commission generated less than 40% of lifetime gross profits
Bet in more than 1,000 markets
9.7.2 The Premium Charge rate applied to each customer that satisfies these conditions is dependent on their lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio. The exact rate will be determined by the following table:

Lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio Applicable Premium Charge Rate
< 5% 60%
5% - 10% 50%
10%+ 40%
9.7.3 Please note that any single market win that constitutes more than 50% of your lifetime gross profits will be excluded from all calculations.

9.7.4 If you satisfy the conditions set out above on 20th June 2011, your lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio on that date will be used to determine the Premium Charge rate that will be applied to your betting thereafter. If you first satisfy the conditions above after 20th June 2011, your Premium Charge rate will be determined based on your lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio at that time.

9.7.5 The amount of Premium Charge incurred by each customer will be calculated in exactly the same way as the standard Premium Charge with the exception that the standard 20% rate will be replaced with increased rate applicable to the individual in each case.

9.7.6 For the purposes of introducing a change to the Premium Charge rate that applies to your betting, we will assume that you have always incurred the Premium Charge at the prevailing rate. For example, if the Premium Charge rate applicable to your betting increases from 20% to 40%, we will assume that you have always paid Premium Charges at 40%. However, as explained in the Calculating Potential Charges section above, this also means that for some customers, some or all of the £1,000 allowance against the charge will have been used in order to offset hypothetical charges paid. Assuming hypothetical charges had been paid prior to introduction of the charge has the effect of reducing the amount that customers would typically incur.

9.7.7 It is possible that your lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio will change to the extent that your applicable Premium Charge rate will require adjustment. Should your rate change, we will recalculate as if you had always incurred the Premium Charge at the new rate. If your rate has decreased (eg if your lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio increases from 4.9% to 5.1% - moving you from a 60% rate to 50% rate), the Premium Charges you ˜overpaid when being charged the higher rate previously will be used to offset future Premium Charges. If your rate has increased, Betfair will notify you directly and give you at least two weeks' notice before the increased rate takes effect. You are entitled to seek review of your Premium Charge rate at any time.

9.7.8 ***By net profits we mean the amounts won less the amounts lost, on all Betfair markets, less all commission paid and Premium Charges debited.
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Derek27
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Location: UK

I'm not there yet, nor do I aim to. Betfair will drag me there kicking and screaming. :)

When your lifetime profit reaches £250K you'll get charged 40% PC minus commission generated, on a weekly basis. However, your lifetime PC at that point in time will be 20%. My understanding is that Betfair will credit you as though you've been paying 40% all your life up to that point. I think it appears under "other charges" on the PC page.

I'm not quite sure what happens if a 40% payer has several losing weeks and drops below £250K lifetime profit.
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ilovepizza82
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So...when do they start charging you 20% ?
When you hit £10 k ? 20k ?
Coz i can be profitable 0.1p throught years and they will still charge me 20% ?
Can anyone explain me this please ?
spreadbetting
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:06 pm

ilovepizza82 wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:29 am
So...when do they start charging you 20% ?
When you hit £10 k ? 20k ?
Coz i can be profitable 0.1p throught years and they will still charge me 20% ?
Can anyone explain me this please ?
Just read the t&C's it's reasonably clear

https://www.betfair.com/aboutUs/Betfair ... /#Premium2

If you meet the criteria, over 250 markets etc and your calculated commission is less than 20% of your gross profit you'll pay PC to top up commission to 20%.
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Derek27
Posts: 23477
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:44 am
Location: UK

ilovepizza82 wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:29 am
So...when do they start charging you 20% ?
When you hit £10 k ? 20k ?
Coz i can be profitable 0.1p throught years and they will still charge me 20% ?
Can anyone explain me this please ?
You're liable for 20% PC straight away (besides very rare exceptions) but you don't pay the first £1000. You can check your PC status and allowance remaining on the PC page.

https://myaccount.betfair.com/activity/premium-charges
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jamesedwards
Posts: 2234
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:16 pm

Derek27 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:26 pm
I'm not there yet, nor do I aim to. Betfair will drag me there kicking and screaming. :)

When your lifetime profit reaches £250K you'll get charged 40% PC minus commission generated, on a weekly basis. However, your lifetime PC at that point in time will be 20%. My understanding is that Betfair will credit you as though you've been paying 40% all your life up to that point. I think it appears under "other charges" on the PC page.

I'm not quite sure what happens if a 40% payer has several losing weeks and drops below £250K lifetime profit.
Cheers
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ilovepizza82
Posts: 490
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spreadbetting wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:36 am

Just read the t&C's it's reasonably clear
Yeah :) As a matter of fact its so "reasonably clear" that nobody seems to fully understand no matter what forum or page i've visited.
spreadbetting wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:36 am

If you meet the criteria, over 250 markets etc and your calculated commission is less than 20% of your gross profit you'll pay PC to top up commission to 20%.
And again. How am i suppose to know if my "calculated commission" is less than 20% of my gross profit ?
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ShaunWhite
Posts: 9731
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

ilovepizza82 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:26 pm
And again. How am i suppose to know if my "calculated commission" is less than 20% of my gross profit ?
Ask them.

Same with any uncertainty you have about Terms. Why ask random people on forums who might be guessing when you can simply ask Betfair what it means.
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Derek27
Posts: 23477
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:44 am
Location: UK

ilovepizza82 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:26 pm
spreadbetting wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:36 am

Just read the t&C's it's reasonably clear
Yeah :) As a matter of fact its so "reasonably clear" that nobody seems to fully understand no matter what forum or page i've visited.
spreadbetting wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:36 am

If you meet the criteria, over 250 markets etc and your calculated commission is less than 20% of your gross profit you'll pay PC to top up commission to 20%.
And again. How am i suppose to know if my "calculated commission" is less than 20% of my gross profit ?
Check your PC page: https://myaccount.betfair.com/activity/premium-charges

If you don't have that page on your account you're probably some way from paying PC, but as Shaun says you can ask Betfair for the figures and then keep tally.
Consty1
Posts: 328
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:41 pm

I think I know the answer to this but can anyone confirm?

For the £250k lifetime profit calculation is it based on your gross profit and loss total in the premium charge portal minus your total charges?
deestar
Posts: 178
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:17 pm

Sadly not. The total charges on the portal include theoretical implied commission generated on losing markets.

The £250k refers to your net lifetime profit. Basically the net cash you have made. ((Total wins less any commission on those wins) minus any losses.)

I don't know why they don't show that on the portal, but if you ask them they should be able to tell you what it is.

If you know your total deposits less withdrawals plus current balance that would more or less equal the same depending on how they treat any bonuses/goodwill credits etc.

It's not complicated just not very transparent.
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Euler
Posts: 24701
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:39 pm
Location: Bet Angel HQ

I re-read the terms tonight, so as I understand it, net P&L will trigger the threshold to reach. In the terms it states: -

9.7.8 ***By net profits we mean the amounts won less the amounts lost, on all Betfair markets, less all commission paid and Premium Charges debited.

Com generated + premium charges will be topped up to the level at which you are at, 20% or 40%.

So if you generate less commission than the target PC level, you will liable for PC to bring you up to that percentage.

I see Clickbait Caan did a video on it, but to put that into perspective it's a lot of hyperbole as he never reached the higher rate threshold.

It would be more interesting to talk about how to avoid it, as I firmly believe if you have a long enough run it, you can. The higher rate only applies if you are really really efficient at winning. I.e. have a very high strike rate.

https://www.betfairtradingblog.com/betf ... ned-part2/
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MemphisFlash
Posts: 2126
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 10:12 pm
Location: Leicester

we all love clickbait Caan. i could think of another name beginning with "C" and ending in "t" that could be used to describe him.
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wearthefoxhat
Posts: 3206
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:55 am

MemphisFlash wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:36 pm
we all love clickbait Caan. i could think of another name beginning with "C" and ending in "t" that could be used to describe him.
Count?
rik
Posts: 1583
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:16 am
Location: London

Euler wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:54 pm

I see Clickbait Caan did a video on it, but to put that into perspective it's a lot of hyperbole as he never reached the higher rate threshold.
Hes not on 40% level?? How is that possible?
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