Is it me or does anybody else suffer from something in their psychological makeup which holds them back from winning?
I have noticed that I can win for several trades in a row and them I blow up and become a wreck.
After making a -£9 loss last week I had a couple of days off. I wiped the slate clean again started with my last bank of £96'ish last week trading at small stakes.
I also decided only to trade from 14:00 to 16:30 (around 16 races) and then quit for the day. I have also noticed the more I win in a row in a single day the more the chances of a blow out during that day.
I have now done 58 races in a row where the outcome has been a profit (albeit small - a profit is a profit).
..but that is where the problems are starting to escalate I can not stop thinking about everytime I have been in this position before I end up lossing my bank.
any thoughts? greatfully received.
Help I'm a PSYCHO! (In the Jack Nicholson sense)
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fink nottle
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:42 am
Hardly the thoughts of a professional but stating the obvious it the losses that you need to control which appear wholly disproportionate to your gains. You must really employ some means of capping you losses and accepting that taking a small controlled and proportionate loss is part of the game. It’s not uncommon when starting out for those learning to achieve regular gains but to lose them plus some in one go. Stop losses is one way or manually getting out quickly when a set amount of you bank is at risk. The game is as much mental as anything else and as soon as you feel your emotions are taking control its time to clock out.
58 successive winning trades shows you have grasped the key to making regular profits
In saying that, it's so much easier with small stakes. This is due to many factors - mainly being you can trade without the pressure of losing a shitload, but also small stakes mean there's no partial matching of bets - small stakes tend to get completely taken.
In my experience newbie traders make 2 common errors. They don't exit bad trades quickly enough, and they don't let successful trades ride a little further. The upshot being their profits are lower and their losses are higher.
Trading offers great rewards, but it's something you need to learn, and experience becomes an incredibly important tool
In saying that, it's so much easier with small stakes. This is due to many factors - mainly being you can trade without the pressure of losing a shitload, but also small stakes mean there's no partial matching of bets - small stakes tend to get completely taken.
In my experience newbie traders make 2 common errors. They don't exit bad trades quickly enough, and they don't let successful trades ride a little further. The upshot being their profits are lower and their losses are higher.
Trading offers great rewards, but it's something you need to learn, and experience becomes an incredibly important tool
You are hitting a problem that most traders hit whilst learning their art- overconfidence!
The threshold where it kicks in is different for everyone, some it's 58 wins
some its 2 
But virtually everyone gets it.
Basically you reach a point where your ego desides you can do no wrong, so you forget your system and discipline, as you no longer need them , because you can't be wrong.
So when a losing trade comes along, you don't cut it, as it will turn around, cause you can't be wrong, let it go inplay, cause you can't be wrong, and wave goodbye to your whole stake in disbelief cause how can you possibly be wrong??
Next race you up your stake to prove to the market your right and it's wrong! How dare it suggest you can be wrong!! and I think we all know what happens next!
This is another demon we must face and conquer, we let losses run and cut profits early thru fear. Once we start to master this, we walk straight into the arms of greed!
This is where keeping a trading journal will help immensely. It will help you to realise your patterns, once you recognise them ( as you are starting to do
) you start to become more self aware.
Then you can start working on realising when it starts and stopping your self sabotage. Like anything new to begin with it takes self discipline, but with time and practise becomes easier.
It's important that you realise you have already made a big step forward, your are becoming aware of your self defeating patterns! What you now need to do is not allow yourself to give in to your ego.
I know this is easier said than done, but you are getting into the nitty-gritty of why trading has a 95% failure rate, it has far more to do with learning to master yourself than it does what method you use.
Hope this helps, I'm off to bed now!
The threshold where it kicks in is different for everyone, some it's 58 wins
some its 2 But virtually everyone gets it.
Basically you reach a point where your ego desides you can do no wrong, so you forget your system and discipline, as you no longer need them , because you can't be wrong.
So when a losing trade comes along, you don't cut it, as it will turn around, cause you can't be wrong, let it go inplay, cause you can't be wrong, and wave goodbye to your whole stake in disbelief cause how can you possibly be wrong??
Next race you up your stake to prove to the market your right and it's wrong! How dare it suggest you can be wrong!! and I think we all know what happens next!
This is another demon we must face and conquer, we let losses run and cut profits early thru fear. Once we start to master this, we walk straight into the arms of greed!
This is where keeping a trading journal will help immensely. It will help you to realise your patterns, once you recognise them ( as you are starting to do
) you start to become more self aware.Then you can start working on realising when it starts and stopping your self sabotage. Like anything new to begin with it takes self discipline, but with time and practise becomes easier.
It's important that you realise you have already made a big step forward, your are becoming aware of your self defeating patterns! What you now need to do is not allow yourself to give in to your ego.
I know this is easier said than done, but you are getting into the nitty-gritty of why trading has a 95% failure rate, it has far more to do with learning to master yourself than it does what method you use.
Hope this helps, I'm off to bed now!
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mikesalter
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:30 pm
I took the strategy of accepting losses yesterday and bit the bullet on a silly trade that went badly wrong for a loss of 27p on a £2/ side trade. I am still trying to wait until it comes down that little bit further and have ended up with it going out even more but I am thinking about it in a more disciplined way (I could have taken a more reasonable 12p loss when it briefly came back but hung out for a 7p loss). I am consistently profiting on 95% of trades and can see how overconfidence would take hold but I have not felt the need to increase stakes when I have a loss. That way I am chugging along happily with £29 in my bank and £2 trades.
One interesting point in the original post is the idea of working 2-4.30 and then stopping. Prior to taking redundancy I worked in an intellectually demanding role but I must admit I find the trading very tiring. It is constant decision making and at first when you arent used to it you can become quite tired. If I get a loss it is usually due to a poor decision and if I think its because of tiredness I will walk away and do something different rather than try to recover immediately. I am always working to convince myself I am not trying to make money, just trying to learn and understand how the market works.
One interesting point in the original post is the idea of working 2-4.30 and then stopping. Prior to taking redundancy I worked in an intellectually demanding role but I must admit I find the trading very tiring. It is constant decision making and at first when you arent used to it you can become quite tired. If I get a loss it is usually due to a poor decision and if I think its because of tiredness I will walk away and do something different rather than try to recover immediately. I am always working to convince myself I am not trying to make money, just trying to learn and understand how the market works.
That's an excellent point, and a very important change of mindset that now allows me to be a full-time tradermikesalter wrote:I am always working to convince myself I am not trying to make money, just trying to learn and understand how the market works.
I used to be obsessed with making lots of money from trading. However, this thirst for money ended up with poor trades. I was just being blinded by greed and pound signs and become reckless whenever I made a loss.
I then took your attitude Mike. I decided the money was a side issue, what I really needed to do was understand the markets and what drove price changes. Once I'd done that, the money should come with it
In June 2008 I was made redundant. I lumped all my pay off into Betfair & decided to try full time trading. 2 years later I'm still here and making more money than ever before. No interviews, no crappy bosses, no pressure of getting appointments, no fear of redundancy etc etc...I love it!!
For all you guys just starting out, hang in there and be patient - it will come
This part is key, you don’t trust yourself not to do something stupid and lose the lot. Once you’ve managed to conquer your demons here you won’t fear losing everything simply because you can’t as you trust yourself to always cut your losses. I also find that once you trust yourself not to do something stupid your stress levels reduce drastically...but that is where the problems are starting to escalate I can not stop thinking about everytime I have been in this position before I end up lossing my bank.
Whenever I get a loss I document the following:
- What was I aiming for at my entry point and why did I enter?
- What actually happened?
- What was the market saying to me that I didn’t see or just ignored?
Record your trades and address the common factors, focus on the good ones and learn from the bad ones then you can only move forward.
Hi ba1000,
I`m still very much a newbie to trading and it`s taken my 9months ish to reach some of the conculosions your`ve managed quite quickly so your on the right track. this game is 80% inside your mind and just 20% about understanding the way the markets workss and what drives them.Don`t be affraid to ask questions the people on this forum are very helpful.one of the best bit of advice i would pass on is to read"trading in the zone" by mark douglas all though it`s about the stock market it`s still a must read for anyone who wants to know more about the mental side of trading. all the best greg
I`m still very much a newbie to trading and it`s taken my 9months ish to reach some of the conculosions your`ve managed quite quickly so your on the right track. this game is 80% inside your mind and just 20% about understanding the way the markets workss and what drives them.Don`t be affraid to ask questions the people on this forum are very helpful.one of the best bit of advice i would pass on is to read"trading in the zone" by mark douglas all though it`s about the stock market it`s still a must read for anyone who wants to know more about the mental side of trading. all the best greg
Thanks for all the responses - excellent advice. I did not trade today - I am shaking and thats definitely not good 
I do lots of mental excercises but I am predispositioned to be a nervous type. If you were not following my story on the "Light bulb..." thread by Harrysdog - you'll see my story there.
However just to add to that further during the 4 week trading course in the City 25% of that course was taken by a psychologist. He had worked with top professional athletes and said that a trader has far more psychological pressures than the top athletes. If you got a job with the trading house he would be working with you further.
So these guys in the City are really cateered for - if you are working along and making money well done!!
I do lots of mental excercises but I am predispositioned to be a nervous type. If you were not following my story on the "Light bulb..." thread by Harrysdog - you'll see my story there.
However just to add to that further during the 4 week trading course in the City 25% of that course was taken by a psychologist. He had worked with top professional athletes and said that a trader has far more psychological pressures than the top athletes. If you got a job with the trading house he would be working with you further.
So these guys in the City are really cateered for - if you are working along and making money well done!!
For me trading is like the MagicEye pictures - remember those? You either see it or you dont.
You enter your trade (I'm scalping so just one tick and I know small stakes is just the beginners level and should be the easiest of all) - it goes to plan - and bang within a second the is trade over - it was successful.
However then there are the times where you can't see a thing!!! This is when I am at my most vulnerable. Not matter what I seem to do I just can not get it right and this is where I loss big time.
So obviously I need to be able to identify these times and cut them out immediately and just move on to the next race.
Simpills
You enter your trade (I'm scalping so just one tick and I know small stakes is just the beginners level and should be the easiest of all) - it goes to plan - and bang within a second the is trade over - it was successful.
However then there are the times where you can't see a thing!!! This is when I am at my most vulnerable. Not matter what I seem to do I just can not get it right and this is where I loss big time.
So obviously I need to be able to identify these times and cut them out immediately and just move on to the next race.
Simpills
Interesting thread and posts guys to which i can relate entirely. Recently i turned off the trading profit column on the BA ladder screen as whenever i found myself on the "red side" i would be fixed on the price moving back to zero or profit and not concentrating on where the price might be going. And as we all know the market is the master and where my point of profit is, is actually irrelevant as to when i should exit my trade, the market(being master) should tell me this point not the other way around. It has worked for me so far, as i do not let bad trades go off into the distance anymore, and thus has helped me not to let any trades go in play of which i was guilty quite often.
Thanks guys
Thanks guys
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mikesalter
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:30 pm
Hi Nellie,
that's an interesting strategy because I have been waiting to make more back and reduce loss whereas I should have got out once the market stabilised at a new, albeit loss making, level. What I have been watching is my profit loss however thinking in your way makes more sense to me. Where before I was watching the trends on the graphs and seeing the rhythms in the movement once a spike occurs and I go into loss I have stopped doing that and started to look at the loss.The only issue with that is that its quite common for the trade to briefly go into loss because you were following a trend but went in a bit too early, the profit loss just tells you where the crossover point is on your exposure, how do you cope with this?
that's an interesting strategy because I have been waiting to make more back and reduce loss whereas I should have got out once the market stabilised at a new, albeit loss making, level. What I have been watching is my profit loss however thinking in your way makes more sense to me. Where before I was watching the trends on the graphs and seeing the rhythms in the movement once a spike occurs and I go into loss I have stopped doing that and started to look at the loss.The only issue with that is that its quite common for the trade to briefly go into loss because you were following a trend but went in a bit too early, the profit loss just tells you where the crossover point is on your exposure, how do you cope with this?
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mikesalter
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:30 pm
Not sure why the last post went red, unintentional
Just re-read this thread - the advice keeps getting better - thanks again.
Bet Angels and Bet Demons (drum role, tumble weed rolling past)
how many times has that been used.
I had always had the trading P&L column turned OFF. However I was watching Youtube videos last week (can't remember which ones) and I was watching a trader with it turned ON - their trades were flying in all over the place but they were constantly using the trading P&L column. I thought thats interesting and for me it has been a revelation.
Funny how different people have different styles - and i think thats a crucial point - what works for somebody may not work for somebody else.
Bet Angels and Bet Demons (drum role, tumble weed rolling past)
how many times has that been used.hi Nellie90 - (do what works for you - I am NOT trying to change your mind - remember that - I am in no position to criticise others.)nellie90 wrote:Recently i turned off the trading profit column on the BA ladder screen as whenever i found myself on the "red side"
I had always had the trading P&L column turned OFF. However I was watching Youtube videos last week (can't remember which ones) and I was watching a trader with it turned ON - their trades were flying in all over the place but they were constantly using the trading P&L column. I thought thats interesting and for me it has been a revelation.
Funny how different people have different styles - and i think thats a crucial point - what works for somebody may not work for somebody else.
Hi LeTiss,
I have enjoyed reading you posts on the forum. I think I remember you saying you dont trade horses but focus mainly on football!*?
Out of interest do you trade these markets InPlay using BA Soccer Mystic product or do you NEVER trader football InPlay?
If you trade In Play how do you cope with the massive market swings if a goal is scored and the market is suspended if you are offside (forgive the pun) or then again you may not trade the Match Odds market.
I have enjoyed reading you posts on the forum. I think I remember you saying you dont trade horses but focus mainly on football!*?
Out of interest do you trade these markets InPlay using BA Soccer Mystic product or do you NEVER trader football InPlay?
If you trade In Play how do you cope with the massive market swings if a goal is scored and the market is suspended if you are offside (forgive the pun) or then again you may not trade the Match Odds market.