Hi all,
I am a complete novice in the world of trading.
I am using the 7 day free trial of Bet Angel Pro, and watched the following video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMs3SfXiV8U
The second part shows the user 'scalping' using the one click screen, he makes it look so simple as though there's no brain power required at all.
I thought seeing as the trial was free. I'd give it a go using £2 stakes. I tried it once to lay the favourite but ended up losing 0.35p, I then went to the next race and did the same process, all the this time I spread the profit over all runners and ended up with 0.04p profit.
I just wanted to know whether there is some sort of signals to look out for or a time frame to place the lay bet?
I should note I had all the same options as the guy in the video selected with just smaller stakes.
I realise I'm probably falling at the first hurdle and the majority reading this will probably be amused at my apparent 'stupidity' but trading is something I am really interested in learning and perhaps one day mastering.
So if anyone can spare a minute and advise basic pointers to get me on my way, using very small stakes (I understand this will only result in potentially small profits,but that's fine for now)it'd be brilliant!!
Thanks in advance
Betfair scalping for beginners
Hi Rion
you will find just a little advice on here .knowledge about trading is more precious than gold.i have my self only started trading a couple of months ago and have experienced all the confusion you are also feeling.i will give you some pointers that might help you some what.but remember im also just a novice and my stakes are also small im praying to get a couple of thousant in my account so i can make some decent trades,so what i say please use caution im still learning,there are so many ways to work the market and its easy to do too much,the most important thing is DESAPLIN (OR HOW EVER ITS SPELT )
make a plan before you trade ,do not deviate from it,do not start to lay bets and bet on horses you fancy. the whole idea is to make your money before the off,green up and straight on to the next race,
also
markets with less than 100.000 in then are very unstable wait for the money which normally comes 5 minuites before the off.wait with your finger on the mouse ready for the right second to enter , enter when the weight of money is at least 66% in any direction with at least 3.000 behind it to push it.when you enter use the one ladder selection this will give you the profit or loss verry clearly ,have the mouse on it ready to exit if it goes tits up it will its just a matter of time.
there are lots of other ways also loke reading in running ,etc etc ,,be verry cautious there are alot of hungry fuckers out there and they will devour new meat like you..take your time find your angle that your comfortable with and perfect it,, good luck if i can help you just ask...good luck stay on the small atakes for at least 3 months watch all the videos over and over,,
regards
marc,,,
you will find just a little advice on here .knowledge about trading is more precious than gold.i have my self only started trading a couple of months ago and have experienced all the confusion you are also feeling.i will give you some pointers that might help you some what.but remember im also just a novice and my stakes are also small im praying to get a couple of thousant in my account so i can make some decent trades,so what i say please use caution im still learning,there are so many ways to work the market and its easy to do too much,the most important thing is DESAPLIN (OR HOW EVER ITS SPELT )
make a plan before you trade ,do not deviate from it,do not start to lay bets and bet on horses you fancy. the whole idea is to make your money before the off,green up and straight on to the next race,
also
markets with less than 100.000 in then are very unstable wait for the money which normally comes 5 minuites before the off.wait with your finger on the mouse ready for the right second to enter , enter when the weight of money is at least 66% in any direction with at least 3.000 behind it to push it.when you enter use the one ladder selection this will give you the profit or loss verry clearly ,have the mouse on it ready to exit if it goes tits up it will its just a matter of time.
there are lots of other ways also loke reading in running ,etc etc ,,be verry cautious there are alot of hungry fuckers out there and they will devour new meat like you..take your time find your angle that your comfortable with and perfect it,, good luck if i can help you just ask...good luck stay on the small atakes for at least 3 months watch all the videos over and over,,
regards
marc,,,
Cheers Marc,
How much did you start with in your account?
Have you managed to increase it at all?
I'm finding it very confusing at the moment.
I'm literally just struggling with the basics, i.e. whether to back or lay first, then whether to wait for the price to increase or decrease?!
How did u get to grips with it? Just watching videos etc??
Cheers mate
How much did you start with in your account?
Have you managed to increase it at all?
I'm finding it very confusing at the moment.
I'm literally just struggling with the basics, i.e. whether to back or lay first, then whether to wait for the price to increase or decrease?!
How did u get to grips with it? Just watching videos etc??
Cheers mate
Hi Marc
Scalping isn't really my thing (I'm more of a swing trader - or at least I try to be! LOL!).
But IMHO the challenge with the method you describe is that you're using the same approach that lots of traders and bots use. And you might have lizard-like reactions with your mouse, but someone's spreadsheet is going to beat your finger to the draw every time!
The point I'm making is that, by the time the opportunity you describe has arisen, I suspect it's usually too late to capitalise on it.
Why not offer money to the market when the price is a few ticks away, so you'll be nearer to the front of the queue when it does arrive? That way, you can kill your order if it looks like the price is going to go straight through you, or grab a tick's profit if it's going to stay there for a little while (or better yet, turn around and reverse after you've been matched!).
Jeff
Scalping isn't really my thing (I'm more of a swing trader - or at least I try to be! LOL!).
But IMHO the challenge with the method you describe is that you're using the same approach that lots of traders and bots use. And you might have lizard-like reactions with your mouse, but someone's spreadsheet is going to beat your finger to the draw every time!
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_e_smile.gif)
Why not offer money to the market when the price is a few ticks away, so you'll be nearer to the front of the queue when it does arrive? That way, you can kill your order if it looks like the price is going to go straight through you, or grab a tick's profit if it's going to stay there for a little while (or better yet, turn around and reverse after you've been matched!).
Jeff
convoysur wrote: wait with your finger on the mouse ready for the right second to enter , enter when the weight of money is at least 66% in any direction with at least 3.000 behind it to push it.when you enter use the one ladder selection this will give you the profit or loss verry clearly ,have the mouse on it ready to exit if it goes tits up it will its just a matter of time.
to ferru
thanks any help from an experienced trader is verry welcome, im not at the excel spread sheet stage yet ,but i will be ,i need to buy them from a trader or do a course oon excel,all in good time
to rion
i started with 100 euros ,and lost it. i repeated this 5 times,
the biggest problem is that when starting with 2 euro trades it seams like your going no where .RIGHT ? BUT REMEMBER IF IT WERE 20 EURO OR 100 EURO YOU WOULD BE LOSING 10 OR 25 TIMES AS MUCH AS YOU ARE IN THE BEGINNING,so relax ,stay calm all good things come to those who wait,remember if you make 25p from a small trade when you know what your doing that trade profit will be 25,00 ,get the basics right ,crawl before walking ,then walk before you run.read all the blogs see what the big boys do you must read between the lines because they wont tell you there secrets or there edge.
a good way to build up your bank in the beginning is this.open accounts with the bookies .
they offer free bets,
example i did last week ..boyle sports in ireland will match my first bet up to 25.00 euros .so i open an account with 25,00 euro i bet a horse at even money .i lay the same horse on betfair ,so i cant loose .now step 2 .i get my free 25,00euro bet from boyle sports .i repeat the process and i have an extra 25 in my bet fair account .remember you want the horse to lose ,you want the money in your betfair account ,repeat this with as many bookies as possible,there are lots with these offers .and i love taking the fuckers money especaills paddy powers he made 194 million last year,,
stay with it nothing in life comes easy we have to work at it.
best of luck with it.
regards
marc
thanks any help from an experienced trader is verry welcome, im not at the excel spread sheet stage yet ,but i will be ,i need to buy them from a trader or do a course oon excel,all in good time
to rion
i started with 100 euros ,and lost it. i repeated this 5 times,
the biggest problem is that when starting with 2 euro trades it seams like your going no where .RIGHT ? BUT REMEMBER IF IT WERE 20 EURO OR 100 EURO YOU WOULD BE LOSING 10 OR 25 TIMES AS MUCH AS YOU ARE IN THE BEGINNING,so relax ,stay calm all good things come to those who wait,remember if you make 25p from a small trade when you know what your doing that trade profit will be 25,00 ,get the basics right ,crawl before walking ,then walk before you run.read all the blogs see what the big boys do you must read between the lines because they wont tell you there secrets or there edge.
a good way to build up your bank in the beginning is this.open accounts with the bookies .
they offer free bets,
example i did last week ..boyle sports in ireland will match my first bet up to 25.00 euros .so i open an account with 25,00 euro i bet a horse at even money .i lay the same horse on betfair ,so i cant loose .now step 2 .i get my free 25,00euro bet from boyle sports .i repeat the process and i have an extra 25 in my bet fair account .remember you want the horse to lose ,you want the money in your betfair account ,repeat this with as many bookies as possible,there are lots with these offers .and i love taking the fuckers money especaills paddy powers he made 194 million last year,,
stay with it nothing in life comes easy we have to work at it.
best of luck with it.
regards
marc
No worries, and although I might be experienced, I won't pretend I'm any good!convoysur wrote:to ferru
thanks any help from an experienced trader is verry welcome, im not at the excel spread sheet stage yet ,but i will be ,i need to buy them from a trader or do a course oon excel,all in good time
![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
I wasn't suggesting you use a spreadsheet, btw; merely that you consider alternative ways of approaching the market.
I would use small stakes until you're confident you know what you're doing. Jumping in with larger stakes might sound fun, but, trust me, losing money isn't fun (believe me, I know!). If I were you, I'd use the minimum stake you can, forget it's money, and just treat your win/loss amount as a way of keeping score in your game against the market.
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_e_smile.gif)
Jeff
PS Remember that much of what you might think you see in the market is smoke and mirrors. The market might appear to be going somewhere, but is it really?
So if everybody jumps aboard the train when the wom is overwhelmingly pointing in a particular direction, you can do the same, or you can think of ways to exploit the crowd's behaviour...
Jeff
So if everybody jumps aboard the train when the wom is overwhelmingly pointing in a particular direction, you can do the same, or you can think of ways to exploit the crowd's behaviour...
![Wink ;)](./images/smilies/icon_e_wink.gif)
Jeff
hI jeff
I really wish i could find a good angle,with your clues .im goina study it even closer to try and find a way to exploit it,but the light bulb in my head hasnt come on yet so i guess its safe to say im still in training ,training without a teacher,
Regards
Marc
I really wish i could find a good angle,with your clues .im goina study it even closer to try and find a way to exploit it,but the light bulb in my head hasnt come on yet so i guess its safe to say im still in training ,training without a teacher,
Regards
Marc
The markets are your teacher. ![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_e_smile.gif)
You might find these pages useful:
http://adamheathcote.blogspot.com/2009/ ... oints.html
http://adamheathcote.blogspot.com/2009/ ... oints.html
And rather than trading, why not simply observe the markets, and see if you can spot any commonly occuring patterns?
Jeff
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_e_smile.gif)
You might find these pages useful:
http://adamheathcote.blogspot.com/2009/ ... oints.html
http://adamheathcote.blogspot.com/2009/ ... oints.html
And rather than trading, why not simply observe the markets, and see if you can spot any commonly occuring patterns?
Jeff
convoysur wrote:hI jeff
I really wish i could find a good angle,with your clues .im goina study it even closer to try and find a way to exploit it,but the light bulb in my head hasnt come on yet so i guess its safe to say im still in training ,training without a teacher,
Regards
Marc
- JollyGreen
- Posts: 2046
- Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:06 am
Hi to Marc and Rion, welcome to the forum.
Marc, I wouldn't get too upset by the lack of information on the internet I would say it is not a deliberate plot from people on this forum. I have spent hours trying to help people on here and trust me it is not easy. There is no absolute way of trading, we all have preferred methods and we all have strengths and weaknesses. I have been doing this for many years and I am still learning and I am still suffering losses at times.
All I would say is try and remain positive about things and people will join you. If you take a negative view then people will see you as a troll or a moaner and so they will ignore you. That is not aimed as a personal sleight on you I am just speaking from many years of experience.
Because trading is such a broad subject it is virtually impossible to offer ABC123 style advice. Yes, there are methods to follow but as mentioned they are a broad brush and people have to find what suits them.
If you want general ABC123 advice then you are not going to find it but if you post a question about a problem you have then someone on here will usually try and help.
Forget looking for books or ebooks, they are usually out of date recycled garbage from years ago and they show methods that now rarely work.
Okay, scalping and what to look for.
If you look at Royal Ascot today the markets should be very strong i.e. there should be plenty of money flowing through them. To perform a successful scalp you either need
a] A very stable market overall (Royal Ascot)
b] A stable period in a market where the price ranges*
* I use this term to describe a price that holds stable, it almost just moved sideways rather than up and down. Almost all markets can show these movements but they are harder to find in weaker markets.
You do not want a stupidly strong favourite (Royal Ascot aside) because that will almost certainly mean larger price movement.
Remember - Volatility is the inverse of liquidity.
Jeff has already mentioned that you need to offer money to the market and you also need to ask for a price. The market is efficient so there is no point trying to beat an efficient market - it will just kill you in time. Yes you may get a few trades right but then it will go wrong and you'll lose money. Sadly many people start this way and think they have cracked it only to have it go wrong and for them not to understand why.
So let's take a basic price of 6.0 for a favourite in a Royal Ascot market. This is purely hypothetical as a guide for you and I am not trying to describe or predict an actual market.
Go to force open on the global settings and choose Reverse.
In the Offset (top left of global settings) select offset with greening. Set the offset to 1 tick.
Ensure there is a check mark in Fill or Kill. At Royal Ascot today you may need it as high as 360 seconds. This will change from day to day and on weak days it can be as low as 10 seconds.
That is the basic setup and you are now ready to go. Do not just dive in watch the market and keep an eye on how the prices are behaving. If the prices are up and down like Jordan's knickers then scalping is the fastest way to the poor house. When the market settles at Ascot today you should see some movement but it should be fairly settled...famous last words!
Okay so using 6.0 as an example price we need to place an opening order. Click on the 6.0 and offer to lay at that price for your desired stake. The software will place the order in the queue of money at 6.0 and you have to wait for it to be matched. If it is matched within the fill/kill time Bet Angel will automatically place a back order at 6.2 to try and secure a profit. Basically the order will join the queue of money at 6.2.
You need to watch the market because any sudden movements could cause a loss. If you get your opening order matched and it appears that the price is likely to shorten then you can try and scratch by backing at 6.0 or accept a loss at 5.9 At Royal Ascot today the markets should move slower so you get a chance to react before it moves.
If the market stays stable then you can repeat the process as many times as possible to try and grab the maximum profit.
Never be afraid to queue money just below the main price just in case the market spikes down and then revives. The worst case is likely to be no match (Yes in a weak market it may smash through you causing a loss but that is part of the learning curve)
At Royal Ascot some traders will actually place orders on both sides of the book because they have spotted a very stable market. This rarely works outside of meetings like Royal Ascot.
I hope that helps to get you started. Keep stakes low and give it a try today. Please remember this is a basic guide and there are lots of things to consider if you want to get into more detail. This setup should allow you to try scalping and get a feel for the markets.
Marc, I wouldn't get too upset by the lack of information on the internet I would say it is not a deliberate plot from people on this forum. I have spent hours trying to help people on here and trust me it is not easy. There is no absolute way of trading, we all have preferred methods and we all have strengths and weaknesses. I have been doing this for many years and I am still learning and I am still suffering losses at times.
All I would say is try and remain positive about things and people will join you. If you take a negative view then people will see you as a troll or a moaner and so they will ignore you. That is not aimed as a personal sleight on you I am just speaking from many years of experience.
Because trading is such a broad subject it is virtually impossible to offer ABC123 style advice. Yes, there are methods to follow but as mentioned they are a broad brush and people have to find what suits them.
If you want general ABC123 advice then you are not going to find it but if you post a question about a problem you have then someone on here will usually try and help.
Forget looking for books or ebooks, they are usually out of date recycled garbage from years ago and they show methods that now rarely work.
Okay, scalping and what to look for.
If you look at Royal Ascot today the markets should be very strong i.e. there should be plenty of money flowing through them. To perform a successful scalp you either need
a] A very stable market overall (Royal Ascot)
b] A stable period in a market where the price ranges*
* I use this term to describe a price that holds stable, it almost just moved sideways rather than up and down. Almost all markets can show these movements but they are harder to find in weaker markets.
You do not want a stupidly strong favourite (Royal Ascot aside) because that will almost certainly mean larger price movement.
Remember - Volatility is the inverse of liquidity.
Jeff has already mentioned that you need to offer money to the market and you also need to ask for a price. The market is efficient so there is no point trying to beat an efficient market - it will just kill you in time. Yes you may get a few trades right but then it will go wrong and you'll lose money. Sadly many people start this way and think they have cracked it only to have it go wrong and for them not to understand why.
So let's take a basic price of 6.0 for a favourite in a Royal Ascot market. This is purely hypothetical as a guide for you and I am not trying to describe or predict an actual market.
Go to force open on the global settings and choose Reverse.
In the Offset (top left of global settings) select offset with greening. Set the offset to 1 tick.
Ensure there is a check mark in Fill or Kill. At Royal Ascot today you may need it as high as 360 seconds. This will change from day to day and on weak days it can be as low as 10 seconds.
That is the basic setup and you are now ready to go. Do not just dive in watch the market and keep an eye on how the prices are behaving. If the prices are up and down like Jordan's knickers then scalping is the fastest way to the poor house. When the market settles at Ascot today you should see some movement but it should be fairly settled...famous last words!
Okay so using 6.0 as an example price we need to place an opening order. Click on the 6.0 and offer to lay at that price for your desired stake. The software will place the order in the queue of money at 6.0 and you have to wait for it to be matched. If it is matched within the fill/kill time Bet Angel will automatically place a back order at 6.2 to try and secure a profit. Basically the order will join the queue of money at 6.2.
You need to watch the market because any sudden movements could cause a loss. If you get your opening order matched and it appears that the price is likely to shorten then you can try and scratch by backing at 6.0 or accept a loss at 5.9 At Royal Ascot today the markets should move slower so you get a chance to react before it moves.
If the market stays stable then you can repeat the process as many times as possible to try and grab the maximum profit.
Never be afraid to queue money just below the main price just in case the market spikes down and then revives. The worst case is likely to be no match (Yes in a weak market it may smash through you causing a loss but that is part of the learning curve)
At Royal Ascot some traders will actually place orders on both sides of the book because they have spotted a very stable market. This rarely works outside of meetings like Royal Ascot.
I hope that helps to get you started. Keep stakes low and give it a try today. Please remember this is a basic guide and there are lots of things to consider if you want to get into more detail. This setup should allow you to try scalping and get a feel for the markets.
Hi Dave
How do you judge whether a previously volatile market has gone into a period of sustained stability?
Let's say a market is jumping around within a 5-6 tick range. Would you class that as a stable market, in that the market isn't going anywhere, or volatile, in the sense that the price is moving around alot?
Do you find that there are generally good scalping opportunities near to the off, given that the price often settles down in the last minute?
Thanks
Jeff
How do you judge whether a previously volatile market has gone into a period of sustained stability?
Let's say a market is jumping around within a 5-6 tick range. Would you class that as a stable market, in that the market isn't going anywhere, or volatile, in the sense that the price is moving around alot?
Do you find that there are generally good scalping opportunities near to the off, given that the price often settles down in the last minute?
Thanks
Jeff
JollyGreen wrote:HTo perform a successful scalp you either need
a] A very stable market overall (Royal Ascot)
b] A stable period in a market where the price ranges*
* I use this term to describe a price that holds stable, it almost just moved sideways rather than up and down. Almost all markets can show these movements but they are harder to find in weaker markets.
If the prices are up and down like Jordan's knickers then scalping is the fastest way to the poor house.
- JollyGreen
- Posts: 2046
- Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:06 am
Jeff
A 5-6 tick move is not a stable market but that does not mean it will not stabilise somewhere.
I try and describe it as an earthquake shock-wave plotted on a seismograph. The first plot is a wild swing but as time moves on it settles down. When it settles you get a stable market which should allow a few scalps....just be wary of any aftershocks!
If you watch any market then almost all will show a period of stability where scalping is possible. Admittedly some will do the "Jordan's knickers" routine but that is where practice and experience comes in.
A 5-6 tick move is not a stable market but that does not mean it will not stabilise somewhere.
I try and describe it as an earthquake shock-wave plotted on a seismograph. The first plot is a wild swing but as time moves on it settles down. When it settles you get a stable market which should allow a few scalps....just be wary of any aftershocks!
If you watch any market then almost all will show a period of stability where scalping is possible. Admittedly some will do the "Jordan's knickers" routine but that is where practice and experience comes in.
- JollyGreen
- Posts: 2046
- Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:06 am
Money above and below the price can help maintain a stable market BUT........just be wary of a single amount that sticks out like a sore thumb. I get nervous if I see a single amount holding a price up or down! I just ask myself "what happens if that is withdrawn or matched?"....answer is usually a sudden move.