Re : Does Scalping work anymore

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Iron
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I have been very sceptical about one tick scalping for some time.

I understand the theory.

On average, the true price lies somewhere between the spread. Yes, the current price may not be the true price, but over thousands of bets, for every time you're x% above the true price, you'll be x% below the true price, and it will even itself out.

So the principle is that, by offering to the market, you beat the spread and obtain long term backing and laying value (and thereby obtain long term trading profitability).

However, my previous experiences of it have been pretty bad.

I'd long since dismissed the approach, but the spreadsheet in the locked thread on this matter - viewtopic.php?f=2&t=159&start=20 - gave me pause for thought. Those results are very impressive (as are the ones in this thread).

Perhaps I had been too hasty. And perhaps I hadn't used a large enough sample previously, or didn't operate in a sufficiently mechanical way. So I created a simple spreadsheet today that does the following:

- £2 offers on both sides of the book.

- If an offer is taken, I make another offer on the same side of the book.

- If the price moves, repeat the process at the new price (without having more than one offer on either side of the book at any time).

- Green or red up 10 seconds before the off.

In theory, this should work great. Win and little, lose a little, secure small but significant long term edge.

However, using £2 stakes, I lost £7 in my first race and £5 in my second.

Maybe I was just extremely unlucky, maybe the market has changed, or maybe you need a faster internet connection and better computer than I have (I use 0.2 refreshes as my computer doesn't cope well with full stream). Or yes, maybe my approach was flawed.

However, with those kind of losses, which far exceed any losses in the spreadsheet, I'm not going to find out. :)

I hope the above doesn't come across as provocative. I know there are people here who swear by scalping, and I'd be genuinely interested in hearing people's opinions on my experiment.

Jeff

PS LeTiss - before you ask - the answer is 'No'. :lol:
Iron
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PPS Stats for the 2 races in question:

297 bets placed.

£771.71 turnover

£12.68 loss

-1.64% ROI
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Euler
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What were the two races?
Iron
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GB / Ayr 12th Oct / 15:05 1m Hcap

GB / Worc 12th Oct / 15:25 2m Stks NHF
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Euler
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Fav?
Iron
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Yes.

When the favourites switched, I ended up trading both favourites, as I hadn't programmed by spreadsheet to stick to the horse that was favourite when I arrived at the market.

I appreciate that higher priced horses are generally better for scalping, but as you had traded low priced horses in your 'random scalping' experiment, I thought I'd include them and see what happened.

I've attached my results.
Scalping Experiment.xls
Jeff
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Iron
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Maybe two races aren't representative.

Plus, the fact that the bot stopped trading a favourite when it stopped being a favourite may not have helped (I've since amended it so that it only trades the horse that's favourite when I arrive at the market).

I'll trade the rest of today's races using 10p stakes and let you guys know how I get on.

Jeff
Iron
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I've decided to call time on my experiment.

Since my post below about an hour ago, the results are as follows:

Stake: 10p
Number of bets: 1073
Turnover: £140.54
P/L: £2.94 loss
ROI: -2.09%

I've excluded races where, due to a bug in my bot, I traded more than one horse.

Possible reasons why I wasn't more successful:

- I was trading the favourite.
- I was using a 0.2 second refresh

Any thoughts?

I've attached my results spreadsheet.

Jeff
Scalping Experiment II.xls
Ferru123 wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:42 pm
Maybe two races aren't representative.

Plus, the fact that the bot stopped trading a favourite when it stopped being a favourite may not have helped (I've since amended it so that it only trades the horse that's favourite when I arrive at the market).

I'll trade the rest of today's races using 10p stakes and let you guys know how I get on.

Jeff
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LeTiss
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I don't know if you saw Peter's post the other day on automation on Greyhounds.

He had a cracking day, bagging £144 just on dog automation, but Peter stressed that it was a bot that was on it's 27th version.

Don't scrap everything Jeff, just try to separate the aspects that are good from the bits that are shit, and then try to re-work it using the successful elements
Iron
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Thanks LeTiss

I agree. :)

Today's experiment was to test 'unrefined' blind scalping, but the result doesn't mean that scalping can't be made to work.

If I throw some directional bias or wom into the mix, the result may be different.

Jeff
weemac
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Maybe Euler can confirm, but I can hardly imagine a much more volatile/risky race type to attempt a 1-tick scalp than a NHF race. I've tried a similar experiment on handicaps in the past (at odds of between 6.0 and 11.0 to get the bigger tick increment values) with similarly poor results. The main problem seemed to be that when the price moves significantly against you, you're just building up a bigger and bigger position on an ever worsening price movement. That was where the real killer lay, and the one tick successes came nowhere near mitigating the losses.

Also, beware of betfair's transaction charges for over 1,000 bets in any hour. These charges are very deviously hidden within your account statement and can only be found by visually scanning your account statement. They are not listed as totals in a separate category and can't be downloaded; you have to ask betfair to send you a spreadsheet. Every sub-£2 scalp attempt counts as 4 bets placed - not 2.
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ruthlessimon
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weemac wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:20 pm
The main problem seemed to be that when the price moves significantly against you, you're just building up a bigger and bigger position on an ever worsening price movement.
& it's easy to get away with that for a long long time. Ironically the biggest profits come when the price goes miles against you (by this time you have a massive position), & completely bailing after a slight retracement gets a gigantic winning trade.
Iron
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weemac wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:20 pm
The main problem seemed to be that when the price moves significantly against you, you're just building up a bigger and bigger position on an ever worsening price movement.
I agree.

My main concern about one tick scalping is that the market can move strongly against you, and you end up trying to sell to a market that is, itself, selling, and therefore isn't interested in what you're selling.

I'm open minded about the possibility that the constant 'Brownian motion' in the market that allows you to get loads of trades through by offering might more than compensate for this.
weemac wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:20 pm
Also, beware of betfair's transaction charges for over 1,000 bets in any hour.
Good point, I wasn't aware of that.

As it's a one off, hopefully Betfair will show a bit of clemency.

Thanks

Jeff
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Derek27
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I started off trading as a scalper and learned the hard way, 5 one-tick profits followed by a 10 tick loss!

Scalping is fine on very stable markets, I've often executed the same scalp repeatedly and built up a nice profit, but try it on a volatile market and you are doomed.

You also need to take care on markets that look liquid enough but are low in activity - they often stay static for a period of time and then BANG - someone moves the market several ticks.

I usually have my potential scalps two or three ticks apart, wait till ones taken and then move the other.
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Derek27
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Ferru123 wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:38 pm
My main concern about one tick scalping is that the market can move strongly against you, and you end up trying to sell to a market that is, itself, selling, and therefore isn't interested in what you're selling.
That's a problem I've encountered many times, when a horse drifts upwards, nobody wants to back it. The situation is probably compounded by other traders who want to lay off their trades.
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