Question to the more experienced long term profitable traders

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Tradertrician
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Location: Suffolk

Hi guys

Would it be fair to believe that a seasoned pro trader could enter a market completely randomly or even allow a non profitable trader who blows bank after bank to enter the market for them over say 100 trades and the pro trader would probably still be nicely in profit after those 100 trades?

Because the secret to success is heavily weighted towards managing each trade efficiently rather than getting on the right side of a future move in the markets.

Also, so in other words, do newbie traders spend too much time trying to become experts in predicting market moves instead of learning to trade efficiently?
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to75ne
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Tradertrician wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:39 am
Hi guys

or even allow a non profitable trader who blows bank after bank to enter the market for them over say 100 trades and the pro trader bLAH BLAH BLAH.

why would anybody do that ? or even care?
Tradertrician
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Location: Suffolk

The non profitable trader convinced they are getting their entry points wrong might care if that's not the main reason they are blowing banks.
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to75ne
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Tradertrician wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:33 am
The non profitable trader convinced they are getting their entry points wrong might care if that's not the main reason they are blowing banks.
yes i understand that but why would the profitable "pro" trader allow someone who clearly cant trade to open trades for them, why? what for?

the reason why they are blowing their banks is because they cant trade (the evidence form these forums suggest is usually a lack of emotional control) opening trades for somebody else will not change that.
Tradertrician
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Location: Suffolk

I think you've taken the question a little bit too literally. This post is designed to maybe help newbies.

The point is, the skill new traders should be concentrating learning is actually trading and reading markets after they have entered and not necessarily spend so much time trying to crack the case of getting entry points perfect as a pro trader could easily prove no matter what entry point (within reason) a complete novice dumped them in, over the course of time they would still work a profit from them.
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Euler
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You essentially have three elements to a trade, successful entry, management and exit. Cock up any of those and the chance of a decent trade is much less. Elite traders are good at all three, but newbies often cock up all three.
Tradertrician
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Location: Suffolk

Thank you Peter.

So considering trading at random the market should move against and for equally over the course of time, entry point is the least important out of the three?
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Derek27
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Tradertrician wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:39 am
Hi guys

Would it be fair to believe that a seasoned pro trader could enter a market completely randomly or even allow a non profitable trader who blows bank after bank to enter the market for them over say 100 trades and the pro trader would probably still be nicely in profit after those 100 trades?

Because the secret to success is heavily weighted towards managing each trade efficiently rather than getting on the right side of a future move in the markets.

Also, so in other words, do newbie traders spend too much time trying to become experts in predicting market moves instead of learning to trade efficiently?
In my opinion, there are three key principles to a successful trade: -
  • Entering the market at a sensible point, by this I mean a position where you have good potential and likelyhood of a profitable exit
  • Chosing an appropriate stake for the capital you have
  • Exiting the trade at a sensible point/time
It goes without saying that if you get the first one wrong, which is what someone who blows bank after bank is likely to do, no professional trader could take over the reigns and turn it into a profit. When you lay a horse too high or back it too low, you either take a loss or sit and wait for something that's not going to happen.
James1st
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Euler wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:07 am
You essentially have three elements to a trade, successful entry, management and exit. Cock up any of those and the chance of a decent trade is much less. Elite traders are good at all three, but newbies often cock up all three.
Tradertrician wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:13 am
Thank you Peter.

So considering trading at random the market should move against and for equally over the course of time, entry point is the least important out of the three?

That is a unique take on Peter's reply!

I would add to his reply by introducing a 4th element and that is the "decision". By that I mean deciding which horse to trade, when to enter the market and in which direction. This is what happens before you make an attempt to place a trade, so I suppose you can denote it as the first of 4 elements. With random entry/direction you are handing over control of this phase to the vagaries of the market.

To gain a successful entry your "decision" requires that you enter the market at the most opportune time; then it needs to be managed according to how the market behaves. A successful and expert "decision" and entry requires very little management and usually presents many exit opportunities.

However, a faulty or rash decision will call on many management skills eg dexterity, expert market reading and a few crossed fingers and it is more than likely the exit will be a hurried decision in an attempt to minimise the losses.

For this reason I would suggest that the "decision" is the element that makes the difference between making regular profits and losing banks.
spreadbetting
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A seasoned trader will most likely come out of the market in profit but that'd be down to making more profitable trades within the market. Obviously seasoned traders aren't as likely to panic or close too early/let losses spiral etc but even seasoned pro's like Peter can't will the market to change the directon of a bad entry.

Far too many newbies enter markets at random, you should always have a good reason for placing you're opening bet. Even if your original reasons are flawed it ' should soon become obvious to you why if the entries are consistent. If your entry points are right you'll still have a good chance of coming out on top even with poor money management when starting out , but good maoney managment won't overcome continually poor starting entries.
Tradertrician
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Location: Suffolk

Let's look at this another way.

If a novice trader entered a liquid market on a favourite with 3 mins to post and then handed the controls over to Peter to manage and exit the rest of the trade. My bet is Peter would be easily profitable over many markets.

He would maximise the profits from the entry's that were ok or moved in a positive direction and would cut losses very short on the entries that were bad or moved in a negative overall trend.

Yes he would obviously be much more profitable if he entered the markets himself but that wasn't the point of this post.

Maybe Peter could take up the challenge and make a video one day. Perhaps get a newbie trader to enter him into a good number of markets and see what results he can squeeze out of them.
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to75ne
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what would that prove? that bad traders are bad traders?
Tradertrician
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It would prove bad traders need to work much harder on their trade management and exit points don't you think?
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to75ne
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you need a video to prove the bleeding obvious?
Tradertrician
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Location: Suffolk

Not me but maybe a good few newbies do who are obsessed with entry points
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