Smarkets public API

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spreadbetting
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:06 pm

LinusP wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:50 pm
Christ, it gets worse
In addition to recent execution prices and prices available on other platforms at the time the bet was matched, Smarkets may also consider a number of additional factors when deciding whether a bet is clearly erroneous.

These include, but are not limited to, system malfunction, the volatility of the contract, new information becoming available in the public domain that may significantly alter the price (such as team news for a football match), whether the result of the bet had been unconditionally decided before a complaint was raised, whether betting on the market was recently halted and resumed, the start price of the selection and if the complainant had taken any steps to limit their exposure to the erroneous bet.
https://help.smarkets.com/hc/en-gb/arti ... ets-Policy

I know, even bookmakers take team news changes on the chin :D
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Derek27
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The simple thing to do is void all bets on every market on the basis that the result of the event is "new information becoming available in the public domain that may significantly alter the price". :lol:
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jimibt
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Derek27 wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:02 pm
The simple thing to do is void all bets on every market on the basis that the result of the event is "new information becoming available in the public domain that may significantly alter the price". :lol:
the simple thing to do is ... AVOID!! (open kimono or *NOT* !!) :D
vide0star
Posts: 50
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Location: London

Derek27 wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:31 pm
What about these lay bets at the bottom - do they all get voided?
LoadRunnerInfoChartAction.do.jpg
There's a price delta of 0.9% in this example which is less than 15%. Our underlying price format is percentages.
vide0star
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Derek27 wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:09 am
vide0star wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:38 pm
Why would you "lose" £5k? This happens so rarely. It's constructed to protect customers, not injure them.
I'm sorry, I thought you would have a basic understanding of how trading works!!

Nobody wants to lose £5K AT ALL, the fact that it rarely happens is no consolation!!!

A simple example: Place a £400 back bet on a horse at 13.0. Lay the horse at 9.0 for £577.78 for a £177.78 profit.

Now, if on one of the very very rare occasions the £400 back bet was voided I could potentially lose my liability on the lay bet of £4,622.24.

Trading is all about spotting bargains - it's possible to lay a horse at half the price you backed it at for a 100% profit. 15% is a very small margin to be applying this policy.

It could be argued that any bet that loses was a mistake/error - that's the whole point of betting, taking advantage of other peoples errors.
There's under a <15% difference between 13 and 9 (100/13 - 100/9) = -3.4%
vide0star
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LinusP wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:06 pm
Derek27 wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:31 pm
What about these lay bets at the bottom - do they all get voided?
LoadRunnerInfoChartAction.do.jpg
I assumed that the 15% will be calculated using implied chance so in this case nothing, but who knows.
Yes, we call implied chance the "price".
vide0star
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Location: London

Trading96 wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:16 am
You may trust your current government but what about the next one? You don't want the government having too much power even if you trust them, because of the precedent it sets.

Similar thing with exchanges.

Smarkets may have your best interests at heart, but what about Smarkets in 5 years time, or the next exchange to come along? That is fundamentally the problem, even if you trust Smarkets to use it reasonably.
Well the nice thing is most bets settle within hours and you can move your money to a competing exchange if Smarkets goes down the dark and narrow path.
vide0star
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spreadbetting wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:36 pm
LinusP wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:50 pm
Christ, it gets worse
In addition to recent execution prices and prices available on other platforms at the time the bet was matched, Smarkets may also consider a number of additional factors when deciding whether a bet is clearly erroneous.

These include, but are not limited to, system malfunction, the volatility of the contract, new information becoming available in the public domain that may significantly alter the price (such as team news for a football match), whether the result of the bet had been unconditionally decided before a complaint was raised, whether betting on the market was recently halted and resumed, the start price of the selection and if the complainant had taken any steps to limit their exposure to the erroneous bet.
https://help.smarkets.com/hc/en-gb/arti ... ets-Policy

I know, even bookmakers take team news changes on the chin :D
I'd love to see you parse your car hire policy! :-) We've never busted a trade for team sheet news. The point of this policy is to say that somebody can't use team sheet as a reason to request a busted trade since it's a volatile point of the market. We'll clean up the wording. Thanks for highlighting!
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Derek27
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vide0star wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:15 pm
Derek27 wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:09 am
vide0star wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:38 pm
Why would you "lose" £5k? This happens so rarely. It's constructed to protect customers, not injure them.
I'm sorry, I thought you would have a basic understanding of how trading works!!

Nobody wants to lose £5K AT ALL, the fact that it rarely happens is no consolation!!!

A simple example: Place a £400 back bet on a horse at 13.0. Lay the horse at 9.0 for £577.78 for a £177.78 profit.

Now, if on one of the very very rare occasions the £400 back bet was voided I could potentially lose my liability on the lay bet of £4,622.24.

Trading is all about spotting bargains - it's possible to lay a horse at half the price you backed it at for a 100% profit. 15% is a very small margin to be applying this policy.

It could be argued that any bet that loses was a mistake/error - that's the whole point of betting, taking advantage of other peoples errors.
There's under a <15% difference between 13 and 9 (100/13 - 100/9) = -3.4%
Thanks for explaining the calculation.

What about laying a horse at 1.5 (66.7%) and backing it above 2.0 (<50%)?

One of those bets being voided could result in a tidy profit becoming a massive liability/loss!

Or the example gave earlier.
LoadRunnerInfoChartAction.do.jpg
vide0star wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:17 pm
Well the nice thing is most bets settle within hours...
Hours???

Many traders like me trade every race and there's one off every 5-10 minutes. Would liabilities be held up all afternoon after the first race?
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vide0star
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Derek27 wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:56 pm
vide0star wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:15 pm
Derek27 wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:09 am

I'm sorry, I thought you would have a basic understanding of how trading works!!

Nobody wants to lose £5K AT ALL, the fact that it rarely happens is no consolation!!!

A simple example: Place a £400 back bet on a horse at 13.0. Lay the horse at 9.0 for £577.78 for a £177.78 profit.

Now, if on one of the very very rare occasions the £400 back bet was voided I could potentially lose my liability on the lay bet of £4,622.24.

Trading is all about spotting bargains - it's possible to lay a horse at half the price you backed it at for a 100% profit. 15% is a very small margin to be applying this policy.

It could be argued that any bet that loses was a mistake/error - that's the whole point of betting, taking advantage of other peoples errors.
There's under a <15% difference between 13 and 9 (100/13 - 100/9) = -3.4%
Thanks for explaining the calculation.

What about laying a horse at 1.5 (66.7%) and backing it above 2.0 (<50%)?

One of those bets being voided could result in a tidy profit becoming a massive liability/loss!

Or the example gave earlier.
LoadRunnerInfoChartAction.do.jpg
vide0star wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:17 pm
Well the nice thing is most bets settle within hours...
Hours???

Many traders like me trade every race and there's one off every 5-10 minutes. Would liabilities be held up all afternoon after the first race?
The hours comment was in regards to Smarkets becoming a bad company in five years. We settle markets within seconds of the horse racing being concluded.

In a 1.5 vs 2.0 world it's only a potential erroneous trade IF the execution was way out of line (+15%) of expectation. This isn't at all related to trading in the morning is 1.5 ish and the afternoon is 2ish.

I'm happy to keep talking about this, but this rule is meant for consumer protection. It's not whatsoever to bust trades willy nilly or protect the market maker. It's invoked a handful of times per month. In a month we have 5-10 million trade executions. If you guys fat finger a lay at 1.01, you will be happy for this policy.
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Derek27
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I appreciate what you're saying, but the example I gave wasn't a morning/afternoon time interval, prices can change drastically in two minutes. I reckon the graph I posted earlier, 30% > 15% would have happened possibly in under five minutes.

Regarding a 1.01 fat-finger back bet, I reckon the guys on this forum are more likely to take advantage of such a cock-up than fall victim to it. It may be fair to void the backer's bet, but the cost is unfairness to the layer who would be looking to trade the bet and won't know where he stands.

Betfair, and as far as I know, Betdaq and Matchbook have no such policy. I think it would be far fairer and simpler if all bets stood in such circumstances.

As Spreadbetting said, the concept of a fair price on a horse race is ridiculous - there's no such thing. If you just look at all the graphs for a typical horse race you'll see the prices are completely bonkers - no consistency and change from one minute to another.

Don't forget you will also have many customers using bots that automatically green up before the off. Some of these will automatically lay a horse that drops substantially and if it inadvertently catches an erroneous 1.01 it would trigger a back bet without knowing the lay will be voided.
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Derek27
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Location: UK

Here's an example at Taree this morning.
LoadRunnerInfoChartAction.do.jpg
£80 at around 2.66 - 2.74. Down to 1.7 in literally one minute.

Anyone who backed it at 2.7 would have to lay it and just hope that it's not voided or he could lose £80.

Or would the back bet more likely be voided, in which case he'd have a lay liability? Either way, it's not practical to trade with such uncertainty.
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napshnap
Posts: 1189
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Never gonna join this crap as a trader.
We can blame betfair for many reasons but at least it doesn't disguise itself as exchange cause it is REAL exchange.
Also, you marketmakers are pussies, if they need to run to you and complain.
They''ll be eaten alive here on betfair.

Betfair is like the old wild west and your "exchange" is like one of those ridiculous communist countries with privileged nomenclature :D .

Also, answer this, please...
so it'd be easy to code some javascript to the site to warn bettors if the odds were +-15% of the current price or even simply reject them at the backend. But then again I doubt the policy is there to protect punters.
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Derek27
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The thought of Smarkets taking a complaint from a user that somebody has accepted their bet at the price they asked for seriously is hilarious. :lol:
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Naffman
Posts: 5626
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:46 am

Jesus guys give the guy a break :lol:

Fwiw I've never had a bet cancelled when betting with them, but never backed or layed at a price I didn't mean to

Think the bet cancellation rule needs a bit of tweaking or hopefully gets abolished if traders are going to switch over with confidence
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