How Should Betfair Handle Bets if an Outage Occurs - Thoughts??

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ShaunWhite
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LeTiss wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:50 pm
Euler wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:39 pm
Betfair should void all markets IMHO.

Traders can get seriously stung and the ROI on trading is small in % terms so an outage is significant.
I totally disagree with that.

The exchanges are not full of traders - there are people on here just having a bet, and traders need these people in order to exist

It would be totally wrong to void all bets, just because there was an outage at some stage - the punters would be taking their money elsewhere, and that would be disastrous for the exchange ecosystem
+1 The bookies would have something to say about it too if all that liability came back to bite them on the arse because BF had been down for 30 seconds. Allowing either party to welch on a done deal undermines the fundamental principals of a bet or a trade.
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gutuami
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I would suggest to cut all the bets into two. so if you have a winner you would be paid only 50%, for a loser you would loose 50% and in the end betfair will loose half of their commission too. Fair for everybody.
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Derek27
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gutuami wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:55 pm
I would suggest to cut all the bets into two. so if you have a winner you would be paid only 50%, for a loser you would loose 50% and in the end betfair will loose half of their commission too. Fair for everybody.
It's not fair on winners and it only solves half the problem for losers, literally.

I don't know why when a non-runner is taken out of the market, Betfair sometimes, but not always, treats 'at in-play take SP' as actual SP bets. If they didn't do this setting all trades to take SP would substantially reduce liabilities in the event of an outage.

As I was writing this I got a splash screen logging into the Betfair website putting it down to a technological improvement, which they do on a daily basis, going wrong. I clicked on it, quite stupidly expecting a link to more information but it just disappeared.
ec0n0mist
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I liked both the suggestion and counter argument in the last two respective posts made before me. They were probably closer to my own take on the matter than any suggestions made prior.

IMHO, traders should absolutely be protected in these circumstances. Betfair is an exchange after all. The question is, why should this protection come at the expense of recreational punters at all? Betfair could (and should) compensate both demographics out of their own coffers. I.e. Winners win and losers don't lose. This restores good faith and builds excellent image value in the long haul.

Of course, whether the corporate 9-5ers will ever consider this solution feasible is a different story. As the saying goes, ''You're only as good as your last quarter.'' and for as long as this culture and attitude persists, the only mission they'll be blindly faithful to is creating the path of least resistance to handsome short term bottom lines, no matter how compelling the case for 'Doing the right thing' is.
Jukebox
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Betfair goes down and some people got stuck with an open position they could do nothing about - the risk is always there and we can't say we aren't aware of the risk as Betfair have not been unclear in their terms.

But now we have an extra dimension as some bets were matched during the outage (I'm not meaning Keep in Play bets)- how did these get matched? Were Betfair's own traders unaffected by the outage? Who matched my open bet at 15:07 (Time recorded by Betfair as Matched Time) when all contact was lost before then? The 15:10 was off at 15:10:14 (according to Sporting Life) so it wasn't a failure to suspend and an early off.
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BetScalper
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Jukebox wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:35 pm
Betfair goes down and some people got stuck with an open position they could do nothing about - the risk is always there and we can't say we aren't aware of the risk as Betfair have not been unclear in their terms.

But now we have an extra dimension as some bets were matched during the outage (I'm not meaning Keep in Play bets)- how did these get matched? Were Betfair's own traders unaffected by the outage? Who matched my open bet at 15:07 (Time recorded by Betfair as Matched Time) when all contact was lost before then? The 15:10 was off at 15:10:14 (according to Sporting Life) so it wasn't a failure to suspend and an early off.
The cross-matching software that runs directly on the BF servers ? They haven't said what the crash was, it could have been the infrastructure outside of the servers. Meaning the servers were up running the cross-matching software but nothing else could connect etc.
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PDC
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There are several ways to connect to Betfair, some of these may have still been accessible and maybe to some people while others were not. I could refresh markets on the website for a short time after my connection went on the API for example. So I don't think the whole system went down at exactly the same time and also it didn't go down for everyone at exactly the same time.
Jukebox
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I can't help feeling that Betfair's own traders might not have been as stuck with open positions as we were.
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BetScalper
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Jukebox wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:29 pm
I can't help feeling that Betfair's own traders might not have been as stuck with open positions as we were.
Ofcourse they weren't. They have priority. The number one aim/goal of any business is to protect itself come what may. Betfair will have automatic procedures in place to close their own positions and limit any liabilities before processing customers orders/liabilities etc.

I don't know but I also suspect certain ($$$$$$$$$) customers (Known market makers) get special treatment when there is an outage too.... :roll:

Anyone who has traded Forex will tell you the same. If YOU or your BROKER has an infrastructure issue then you are basically on your own risk wise.
Last edited by BetScalper on Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ec0n0mist
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Jukebox wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:35 pm
Betfair goes down and some people got stuck with an open position they could do nothing about - the risk is always there and we can't say we aren't aware of the risk as Betfair have not been unclear in their terms.

But now we have an extra dimension as some bets were matched during the outage (I'm not meaning Keep in Play bets)- how did these get matched? Were Betfair's own traders unaffected by the outage? Who matched my open bet at 15:07 (Time recorded by Betfair as Matched Time) when all contact was lost before then? The 15:10 was off at 15:10:14 (according to Sporting Life) so it wasn't a failure to suspend and an early off.
No one is challenging the clarity of their T&C nor implying they have acted illegally. But rather, the debate could be more geared towards a discussion that revolves around form and ethics. Keep in mind, they are in the business of providing a platform for people to swap risk assets/ derivatives. If customers suddenly can’t do it, what good is the service?

Say you dine at a fancy restaurant and get food poisoning on the spot. It’s unlikely the establishment will have an official refund policy but I think it’s safe to say that most restaurants in this situation would not have charged you for the meal as a bare minimum. Not just because the managers want to avoid getting whacked the following day but because anything short of this would create bad publicity and cut off long term value. And this is food we’re talking about here.- Betfair are dealing with a product that directly messes with people’s livelihoods.

As for the other aspect you bring up, I had no knowledge of this as I rarely trade horse racing nowadays. But if I am understanding you correctly, then that is genuinely fucked up!
FrogThimble
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Jukebox wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:35 pm
Betfair goes down and some people got stuck with an open position they could do nothing about - the risk is always there and we can't say we aren't aware of the risk as Betfair have not been unclear in their terms.

But now we have an extra dimension as some bets were matched during the outage (I'm not meaning Keep in Play bets)- how did these get matched? Were Betfair's own traders unaffected by the outage? Who matched my open bet at 15:07 (Time recorded by Betfair as Matched Time) when all contact was lost before then? The 15:10 was off at 15:10:14 (according to Sporting Life) so it wasn't a failure to suspend and an early off.
I was very confused by what happened as it happened.

I started off by placing a Lay bet on the Fav. I immediately realised that something was wrong because although the one-click interface indicated that my bet was placed the balance of my bank didn't decrease accordingly as it should. So then I traded out for what would be break even but this time neither the one-click nor my balance showed any change. So I assumed it hadn't gone through... so I tried to place the same trade again... again no indication of anything happening so I just gave up trying and had to accept that I would lose my initial stake if the horse won.

Once things were back up again I signed back in and saw that my balance had increased. My initial lay bet and both my attempts at trading out had actually gone through so I had one lay bet and two back bets on the winning horse all at approx the same price. So I was very lucky. I'd got matched on everything I'd done even though the interface was, to all appearances, totally frozen.

I'm glad I had the sense to step back after two (seemingly failed) shots at trying to trade out though. Anyone who kept on trying to click, thinking their bets were not being matched when they actually were, could easily have ended up very exposed indeed.
Atho55
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James1st
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FrogThimble wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:07 am
Jukebox wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:35 pm
Betfair goes down and some people got stuck with an open position they could do nothing about - the risk is always there and we can't say we aren't aware of the risk as Betfair have not been unclear in their terms.

But now we have an extra dimension as some bets were matched during the outage (I'm not meaning Keep in Play bets)- how did these get matched? Were Betfair's own traders unaffected by the outage? Who matched my open bet at 15:07 (Time recorded by Betfair as Matched Time) when all contact was lost before then? The 15:10 was off at 15:10:14 (according to Sporting Life) so it wasn't a failure to suspend and an early off.
I was very confused by what happened as it happened.

I started off by placing a Lay bet on the Fav. I immediately realised that something was wrong because although the one-click interface indicated that my bet was placed the balance of my bank didn't decrease accordingly as it should. So then I traded out for what would be break even but this time neither the one-click nor my balance showed any change. So I assumed it hadn't gone through... so I tried to place the same trade again... again no indication of anything happening so I just gave up trying and had to accept that I would lose my initial stake if the horse won.

Once things were back up again I signed back in and saw that my balance had increased. My initial lay bet and both my attempts at trading out had actually gone through so I had one lay bet and two back bets on the winning horse all at approx the same price. So I was very lucky. I'd got matched on everything I'd done even though the interface was, to all appearances, totally frozen.

I'm glad I had the sense to step back after two (seemingly failed) shots at trying to trade out though. Anyone who kept on trying to click, thinking their bets were not being matched when they actually were, could easily have ended up very exposed indeed.
This is almost identical to my own situation. After the screen froze and I was exposed on a lay bet, I tried trading out (3 back bets were placed according to my P/L, all after the crash time). Since the API was obviously down and btw so was the Desktop, Betfair should not have been accepting bets, according to their own rules set. If Betfair intend to continue with arbitrary decision making on outages then the best advice for users is NOT to touch any keys and never "try" to trade out. Far better to accept the loss or gain on Betfair and look elsewhere to mitigate any potential losses.

Peter, through Bet Angel is in a better position than most to fill in the fine detail on the timings, so I trust he will advise shortly.
beachboyroy66
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I had an issue yesterday when Betfair went down. I had an open lay trade and thought I had lost my money. Luckily for me the horse lost and I made a profit. If it had won I would of been out of pocket by quite a few quid.
I think that all bets/trades should be void. I see that is the only fair way and no one loses except Betfair. At the end of the day why should we lose through something that is out of our control. It's their site so they shouldn't profit from their site going down. Punters should be protected from this.
FrogThimble
Posts: 124
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James1st wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:29 am
If Betfair intend to continue with arbitrary decision making on outages then the best advice for users is NOT to touch any keys and never "try" to trade out. Far better to accept the loss or gain on Betfair and look elsewhere to mitigate any potential losses.
I have no particular axe to grind about how Betfair make the decisions because there's no way that they can please everyone. I certainly agree with your advice for users though. The only trouble is that "Betfair must be down" wasn't my first thought yesterday... it was only my second thought. My first thought was "Why didn't that work?"... my attempts to trade out took place in the couple of seconds between those thoughts.
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