the weight of money

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Lucacrebbe
Posts: 190
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:23 pm

The weight of money

I have red a discussion about this indicator on a betting forum

An user made this question in the forum:

'''Hello, can I use the WOM wheight of money to make a bot, that will trade only when the Weight of Money is triggered ? '''



Basically the weight of money, Depth of Market is how much money is on the lay or in the back side

1 If there is MORE money in the lay side, the price it is supposed to go up shortly

2 If there is more money into the Bac side, the price it is supposed to fall

At the least this is what I have understood. And that is how it works in any market, financial market too

Anyway that user got this answer :

''' No... once upon a time it was easy on Betfair... you just had to program a bot triggered by the Weight of Money... but those days are long gone.... that because there are so many bots in the market nowdays '''


I would like to understand why those principle ( 1 and 2 ) do they not apply anymore, and why they do not apply anymore because of the bots

How can these bots make the weight of Money indicator useless ?

Do you use this indicator ?

Is it useful JUST when there is a big increase/decrease in the Weight of M. ?
dt888
Posts: 393
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:25 pm

One word - Manipulation

However I dont think weight of money is useless at all

I would never place a trade either manually or with a bot from the weight of money percentage figure alone, but the weight of money I can see with my own eyes when looking at the ladder is very important in my opinion. Even if it is to place a trade in the opposite direction to the way the weight of money might look at the time

Many people moan about manipulation and I understand why, but the trick is to just get on with it and learn ways to use in in your favour. Some ways that people manipulate the market is very easy to spot and others a lot more subtle
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Derek27
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Location: UK

There is a lot of 'invisible' money on the exchange. By this I mean traders waiting to chuck money on the exchange when a given price is reached, and this sometimes swings round the weight-of-money.
Emmson
Posts: 3363
Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:47 pm

Euler deems WOM important and has never dismissed it on here, in fact quite the opposite.
Shock horror, I tend to use weight of money to exit.
Pressure can build at many points but you need some definitive manifestation of that and more often than not you can see that in the WOM. At the end of the day if people stop backing or laying something it has to show in that figure.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1850&p=17552&hilit= ... ney#p17552
It's more the persistance of WOM that you need to focus on. Persistanty above the line means more people are laying than backing and vice versa.
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4645
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ShaunWhite
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Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

Those quotes are from 2010 & 2011! I'd be suprised if there hadn't been some evolution since then but the principles still seem logical.

WoM would be a good guide if you knew whether the money had real intent. How it behaves and what's just outside are more telling imo. A bot probably won't be able to understand that until BA v8. 1
Lucacrebbe
Posts: 190
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:23 pm

dt888 wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 7:22 pm
One word - Manipulation

However I dont think weight of money is useless at all

I would never place a trade either manually or with a bot from the weight of money percentage figure alone, but the weight of money I can see with my own eyes when looking at the ladder is very important in my opinion. Even if it is to place a trade in the opposite direction to the way the weight of money might look at the time

Many people moan about manipulation and I understand why, but the trick is to just get on with it and learn ways to use in in your favour. Some ways that people manipulate the market is very easy to spot and others a lot more subtle
Hello thank you for your answer.

basically do you trade only when the WOM is clearly showing an interest into laying or into backing at a given moment?

Let-s suppose for example that at a given moment the WOM is at 0,33% and then it clearly shows a market willing backing... so do you enter into the trade confidently?


Also I would like to know how are you able to spot if there is manipulation or there is a true willing into baking or laying at a given time
Lucacrebbe
Posts: 190
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Derek27 wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 7:27 pm
There is a lot of 'invisible' money on the exchange. By this I mean traders waiting to chuck money on the exchange when a given price is reached, and this sometimes swings round the weight-of-money.
I don t understand very well how do they trick an innocent punter to fall for their traps

Lets suppose I am a guy with a lot of money

The current price is 2.8 in lay and 2.5 in back

OK

Please could you explain how guys with a lot of money and willing to manipulate the market can take an advantage out of the market ?


I would know the iter... what do they do?

Do they place a big order just a tick behind the back or the lay price? Or do they place their orders far away from the current price?
for example > current lay is 4 and do they place a big order at 8 ?


It looks like an idiot thing to do... lets suppose the lay price is 3, ok?

Lets suppose I would like to manipulate the market and I want to make the price to go up

I will put an order of 20000 at the lay price of 3,2

What happens if my offer gets eaten?

What would happen if the market reacts quickly and will match my offer?
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Derek27
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Location: UK

If your order got eaten you could potentially lose 44,000!

Spoofing involves placing large orders close to the current trade price to encourage the market in one direction. It's highly risky and the spoofer would need a good understanding of the market that he's trading.

Please don't try it yourself. When you learn to recognise spoofers on the exchange you can take advantage - other traders may believe the market is going to move one way when you know better.
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BetScalper
Posts: 1139
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:47 pm

Lucacrebbe wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 7:28 am
Derek27 wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 7:27 pm
There is a lot of 'invisible' money on the exchange. By this I mean traders waiting to chuck money on the exchange when a given price is reached, and this sometimes swings round the weight-of-money.
I don t understand very well how do they trick an innocent punter to fall for their traps

Lets suppose I am a guy with a lot of money



The current price is 2.8 in lay and 2.5 in back

OK

Please could you explain how guys with a lot of money and willing to manipulate the market can take an advantage out of the market ?


I would know the iter... what do they do?

Do they place a big order just a tick behind the back or the lay price? Or do they place their orders far away from the current price?
for example > current lay is 4 and do they place a big order at 8 ?


It looks like an idiot thing to do... lets suppose the lay price is 3, ok?

Lets suppose I would like to manipulate the market and I want to make the price to go up

I will put an order of 20000 at the lay price of 3,2

What happens if my offer gets eaten?

What would happen if the market reacts quickly and will match my offer?
In one of Peters videos he takes on a spoofer/market manipulator/bot and wins.

Its actually funny too watch and gives you some indications on what to do. :)
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RedBrain
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:20 pm

Lucacrebbe wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 7:28 am
I don t understand very well how do they trick an innocent punter to fall for their traps
No, they do not trick anyone (usual) :)) "innocent" punters just do wrong things in the market and these "dirty bastards" do the right thing.

Speaking about weight of money - you actually do not need indicator to see se money. Look at pic - it's clear that much more money come from layers. When it looks like money are 50/50 on both sides - note that to back $100 - you need only 100, but to lay $100 at 4.0 you need $300, so $100 on the lay side weight much more that opposite.
WOM.PNG
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to75ne
Posts: 2413
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RedBrain wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 10:04 am

note that to back $100 - you need only 100, but to lay $100 at 4.0 you need $300, so $100 on the lay side weight much more that opposite.
what?
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RedBrain
Posts: 37
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WOM1.PNG
for situation if we have money only on 4.1 and 4.2 - 328>167 .
but for this current imaginable situation I would say that $167 more "powerful" than $328 because 167 can be a single chunk of real money and this $100 off usually splitted between a lot of small stakes. So looking at the market in depth is important
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to75ne
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RedBrain wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 10:31 am
for situation if we have money only on 4.1 and 4.2 - 328>167 .
but for this current imaginable situation I would say that $167 more "powerful" than $328 because 167 can be a single chunk of real money and this $100 off usually splitted between a lot of small stakes. So looking at the market in depth is important
you appear to be confusing (or conflating) liability and W.O.M.
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BetScalper
Posts: 1139
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RedBrain wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 10:31 am
WOM1.PNG
for situation if we have money only on 4.1 and 4.2 - 328>167 .
but for this current imaginable situation I would say that $167 more "powerful" than $328 because 167 can be a single chunk of real money and this $100 off usually splitted between a lot of small stakes. So looking at the market in depth is important
Where do you get $328 from ????
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RedBrain
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:20 pm

BetScalper wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 10:54 am
Where do you get $328 from ????
It's liability.
to75ne wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 10:53 am
you appear to be confusing (or conflating) liability and W.O.M.
No, I undestand the difference. I want to say that WOM is not an indicator that you can rely on :) you need to see how money come into the market (in small portions or not), calculate the real amount of money. WOM is not accurate and can be easily manipulated.
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