Probably yes, but that's mathematically inevitable. Rather than look at traded volume, look at traded liability (aka implied volume) and I'd guess it correlates with race quality more closely than price. It's simply not logical to compare the vol on a 1.5 horse to a 5.0.ruthlessimon wrote: ↑Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:28 pmThere will be a correlation between course volume @ 5mins & the average price of the fav @ 5mins
Number Crunching After Capturing and Sorting.
- ShaunWhite
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when i went down this route (which simon will recall from 15-18 months ago), it was an interesting time. the combo of vwap/ltp seemed to work REALLY well. UNTIL - we had a scatty runner that threw the rider or a crisp packet blew across the stalls! (strange but true). Due to this, I now have doubts that you can trade via signals (pre race) without a major caveat. IF (big IF), one were able to seperately detect a huge odds spike (due to crisp bags etc), and smoothe it out (based on current liability), then maybe you would be able to crunch beyond mishap.ShaunWhite wrote: ↑Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:41 pmProbably yes, but that's mathematically inevitable. Rather than look at traded volume, look at traded liability (aka implied volume) and I'd guess it correlates with race quality more closely than price. It's simply not logical to compare the vol on a 1.5 horse to a 5.0.ruthlessimon wrote: ↑Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:28 pmThere will be a correlation between course volume @ 5mins & the average price of the fav @ 5mins
at present, i'm of the opinion that unforeseen elements are just too difficult to deal with. this almost squares with an old observation that the best risk/reward ratio lies outside the *golden* 5 minute pre window.
disclaimer - i no longer trade pre on automation (at present) due to the scenarios that can occur out of kilter pre race...
[edit] - agree that there's a golden MEAN when we reach anything below 2.0 odds !! (tho - can go one way or the other)... Fractals anyone??
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Yeah I musta missed thatShaunWhite wrote: ↑Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:21 pmI guess you didn't read my pm where I mentioned the idea of implied volume (prob not its real name, I made it up). That, or similar will remove that distortion.
I'd be interested to know if that's a hunch, or a conclusion to a test you've already performedShaunWhite wrote: ↑Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:21 pmI don't think low volume means lack of conviction. I think it just means there's so much racing that your average hard up punter can't afford to be spunking money on 150 races a week and picks what's decent to be interested in.
I could easily add a "handicap" to any strategy - in order to underestimate the profitability (probably worth doing i.e. -2 ticks). But my aim is to discover "general concepts" rather than tick perfect edges.ShaunWhite wrote: ↑Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:21 pmYou seem to be posting a lot of positive edge charts lately. Are you sure they're all take strategies? I wouldn't trust anything in excel that needed offers.
i.e. Is race type useful, - to which the above graph proves yes. (haps vs nov stks).
But also seeing concepts perfectly mirrored i.e.
Clearly even if I miss a tick entering & exiting, there's a bias which is linking novices & mdns
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This is my whole overarching point. Crossing that barrier to profitability is tiny. But becoming a "big trader" means we have to answer those questions (i.e. volume varies during the yr, the volume is different on Sat)
.. which is why Peter/most top traders adjust their strats during a Saturday to account for the volume "spurts"
But also that's a refinement that could easily be tested (how does this strategy perform @ Saturdays vs Weekdays)
-Basically.. what I'm tryin to say. It's vital we don't jump to conclusions when asking the hard questions. & these are bloody hard questions! (i.e. does love volume promote mean-reverting activity)
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I don't need to test it, the bigger the event the bigger the money, fact.ruthlessimon wrote: ↑Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:00 pmI'd be interested to know if that's a hunch, or a conclusion to a test you've already performedShaunWhite wrote: ↑Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:21 pmI don't think low volume means lack of conviction. I think it just means there's so much racing that your average hard up punter can't afford to be spunking money on 150 races a week and picks what's decent to be interested in.
yes there might be one or two races where interest has peaked and something different might happen, but I'm talking about general concepts. I'm not really into the idea of staring at my screen all day for the next 20yrs looking for edge cases.
How will you work that out? The spread varies according to time, price and volume. And if you offer, then the fill rate is subject to the same factors.ruthlessimon wrote: ↑Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:00 pmI could easily add a "handicap" to any strategy - in order to underestimate the profitability (probably worth doing i.e. -2 ticks).
Remember too that the biggest edge you're likely to find will be smaller than the margin for error in your theoretical tests.
wowruthlessimon wrote: ↑Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:00 pmBut my aim is to discover "general concepts" rather than tick perfect edges.
My decision loop is:
1. Find a pattern
2. Does it make money
3. Does it improve anything I've already explored
4. F'ck me the rent is due, Goto 1
Are you saying yours is :
1. Find a pattern
2. Goto 1
Who's funding all this purely academic research !
You've been going 2.5 years now; from when you first started these 'general concepts' have mostly likely evolved with the market itself
I think you might place to much emphasis on stats and figures when most traders (even automated ones) trade on intuition
I think you might place to much emphasis on stats and figures when most traders (even automated ones) trade on intuition
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Two and a half years is a long time especially with Simon's workrate, surely you must have come up with some strategies to stick thru the market by now? You should put a few hundred aside and manually trade what you think your 'bot' should do, you'll learn a lot more about how markets react to liquidity etc by watching them live rather than old data in excel.
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I know there's plenty of people in my boat
Yeah absolutely, my issue is (& it's has always been) refining those strategies & continuing my growth.
I'm at a very awkward point, I know I've got half decent ideas/edges (not backing by letters!!!) - I just find refining those ideas, into an "all-encompassing, varied staking, approach" very very difficult. & I don't really want to post my trade ideas, but at the same time I don't understand my trade ideas
I remember back when I first started literally just backing certain faves. Almost random but slightly +ve. Technically, I had an edge straight off the bat, but I didn't want to do that for my entire trading career
This is a good analogy, which sums me up to a T:
I was at a really good footballing academy as a youngster (i.e. what Jimibt talks about above), but now I'm at this sodding Vanarama team, & I refuse to play - citing my academy pedigree!!! (but at least I'm at a team)
i.e. I refuse to use the edge because it's not good enough
That's such an awful mentality, but does sum me up quite well! I just don't want to be at a Vanarama club my entire career!!
Yeah absolutely, my issue is (& it's has always been) refining those strategies & continuing my growth.
I'm at a very awkward point, I know I've got half decent ideas/edges (not backing by letters!!!) - I just find refining those ideas, into an "all-encompassing, varied staking, approach" very very difficult. & I don't really want to post my trade ideas, but at the same time I don't understand my trade ideas
I remember back when I first started literally just backing certain faves. Almost random but slightly +ve. Technically, I had an edge straight off the bat, but I didn't want to do that for my entire trading career
This is a good analogy, which sums me up to a T:
I was at a really good footballing academy as a youngster (i.e. what Jimibt talks about above), but now I'm at this sodding Vanarama team, & I refuse to play - citing my academy pedigree!!! (but at least I'm at a team)
i.e. I refuse to use the edge because it's not good enough
That's such an awful mentality, but does sum me up quite well! I just don't want to be at a Vanarama club my entire career!!
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Until you actually put money through the markets you'll never know if you have an edge in the first place. I don't know anyone who goes straight into the markets with a fully formed bot, you'll forever be tweaking them as long as you use them. What appears to work on paper doesn't neccessarily work in practice because the markets are so heavily botted your input into the market can create a butterfly affect even from relatively small stakes.ruthlessimon wrote: ↑Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:13 pmi.e. I refuse to use the edge because it's not good enough
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You've misinterpreted my pointShaunWhite wrote: ↑Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:22 amI don't need to test it, the bigger the event the bigger the money, fact.
At certain points during the market, I don't think volume matches what it should - & this concept would apply to both Lingers & Chelt (problem is that it's incredibly difficult to test via. data)
I'll send you an idea for you to test on your sheets - & you tell me if it isn't an edge according to your sheetsShaunWhite wrote: ↑Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:22 amHow will you work that out? The spread varies according to time, price and volume. And if you offer, then the fill rate is subject to the same factors.
The irony is, that statement is pretty much true - hence proving why government agencies generally never get stuff done Although still.. I would've reworded it like this:
1. Find a pattern
2. Does it pay the rent & some, if no, step 1
Anyone can have an edge just boarding on random imo!
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ShaunWhite wrote: ↑Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:22 amHow will you work that out? The spread varies according to time, price and volume. And if you offer, then the fill rate is subject to the same factors.
Without going into the actual details of the strategy - yea or nay? Maybe post up your equity curveruthlessimon wrote: ↑Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:43 pmI'll send you an idea for you to test on your sheets - & you tell me if it isn't an edge according to your sheets
& can you see why I call that a "Vanarama league edge" - clearly that can be improved with the right approach.
Moreover, the inputs of that strategy highlight some very key concepts imo - again concepts which I don't fully understand
Or possibly that you might not have chosen the right market for such perfectionism - pre off horseracing has so many variables and the last 10 minutes or so introduces so many more and so much more frequently that can suddenly change everything.
Whereas 6 dog racing with no jockeys, negligible loading issues, negligible delays or conditions changes to worry about or prematch soccer or tennis might be better suited to your approach.
Whereas 6 dog racing with no jockeys, negligible loading issues, negligible delays or conditions changes to worry about or prematch soccer or tennis might be better suited to your approach.