Impact of trading environment on your P&L

[JasBarrow]

I'm pretty new to trading but i'm experiencing a 'problem' I really didnt expect. I'm a pretty positive guy, definitely a glass half full type, however I share a house with 2 other guys both of whom are very negative in their outlook on life and I think their constant negativity is having a detrimental effect on my positivity. By way of example when I sit down to trade I'm pretty positive, i'm by no means a great trader but I'm methodical in my approach so that ensures while I don't win huge amounts I definitely wont lose huge amounts either. However if mid way through a trading session I leave my room for a break and I talk to my housemates for 10 minutes I generally come back to my computer feeling much less positive than I started out, this then leads me to making mistakes and more worryingly I feel a kind of apathy towards trading which obviously is not good. I can even see this illustrated in my results, as I have more red races when feeling this way. I initially thought this was happening because i was breaking the rhythm by taking a break but I've since established this isnt so as the days I'm home alone and take a mid session break I come back feeling just as good as when I started out regardless of results.

I'm wondering if anybody else has experienced similiar negative emotions that were brought on by outside unfluences while trading and what you did about it?

Obviously the simple suggestion is to not interact with anybody until my trading session is done which is something I've adopted recently however I'm starting to feel this apathy at the start of trading sessions after speaking to the guys before I start trading. They're not bad guys, they're just very depressing to be around most of the time and given that I have to live with them some amount of interactivity is inevitable.

My experience also raises an interesting question for me... in broader terms is it possible to succeed at trading if you dont have a positive mindset 100% of the time you're trading?

[ruthlessimon]

I'm starting to feel this apathy at the start of trading sessions after speaking to the guys before I start trading.

It's a really difficult one. If it was me I'd probably just leave them (but that might not be an option). Because, for me, mentality outside of market hrs, is vitally important for any chance of success (far more important than "market hrs mentality")

This is probably a wild scenario but: - if I had to live with a couple of guys (who I liked), & one was a hoarder - which kept causing arguments - meaning I couldn't concentrate - I'd pay to get their stuff to a garage.. lol what a fackin waste of money for their sanity though!!

in broader terms is it possible to succeed at trading if you dont have a positive mindset 100% of the time you're trading?

Absolutely; all depends on your edge (& edge type - i.e. quantitative edge), here's why.

Let's assume I lie in & miss the first 2hrs of trading. If the edge/trading plan is strong, then there's still a very good chance of having a profitable day. However, if that edge is weak, those markets in the first 2hrs - could've been vital to tilting the day +ve or avoiding an unnecessary losing one.

Here's a rule of thumb I've had for a long time: - those who promote psychology do so, because their edge (if they even have one), requires a perfect mentality in-order to work. Therefore, we can infer that they probably aren't massively profitable, & the edge isn't very good!

[napshnap]

Avoid toxic people.

[PDC]

Here's a rule of thumb I've had for a long time: - those who promote psychology do so, because their edge (if they even have one), requires a perfect mentality in-order to work. Therefore, we can infer that they probably aren't massively profitable, & the edge isn't very good!

Hmmmm, not sure Peter Webb would agree, who is a big promoter of psychology. Or do you think he is all smoke and mirrors with his results!?

My advice to the OP is get out as soon as you can, avoid negative people at all costs, they will just drag you down, avoiding negative family people is hard but 'friends' is easier and in the long term you will be better for it. I am sure Peter Webb did a video that talked about surrounding yourself with positive people and avoiding negative people.

[ShaunWhite]

Here's a rule of thumb I've had for a long time: - those who promote psychology do so, because their edge (if they even have one), requires a perfect mentality in-order to work. Therefore, we can infer that they probably aren't massively profitable, & the edge isn't very good!

Hmmmm, not sure Peter Webb would agree, who is a big promoter of psychology. Or do you think he is all smoke and mirrors with his results!?

I don't think anyone's saying his results are bogus, but personally I do think that his approach only suits people who either have the 'correct' psychology profile or at least start quite close to it. It requires people to sustain a certain demeanor for hours and hours and hours on end. In a recent yt vid he even says himself that after 20yrs of trading, large losses still take a degree of getting over, albeit only about 20s of getting over in his case, but it shows that the emotion can never be completely eradicated.

I've had a long running disagreement with Simon about the impact of psychology and I have to admit that he's right. The better the edge, the less 'psychology' you need. Any edge that requires you to behave like an automoton and never have normal human emotions and failings isn't much of an edge. A rock solid edge you can qualify and quantify is essential and removes a whole raft of pitfalls.

[iambic_pentameter]

I used to be friends with a chap who used to pour scorn on any goals I would have.

Long story short - he suggested that trading was a pipe dream and that it was a waste of time, I disagreed strongly and have not spoken to him since - that was 3.5 years ago.

It was the best thing I ever did.

As Napshap says, avoid toxic people.

[ruthlessimon]

Hmmmm, not sure Peter Webb would agree, who is a big promoter of psychology. Or do you think he is all smoke and mirrors with his results!?

My rule of thumb, applies to the trading sector as a whole (i.e. financials/futures etc - not just sports). My problem is: - anyone can be a psychology expert, but not everyone can be a trading expert.

I'm trying to think of some "psychology secrets" that would never be shared - but for some reason, I can't really think of any . Yet I can think of a couple of "trading secrets" that will never ever ever ever ever, go near the public domain

Let me be clear (& if you search you'll see I've written following for yrs): - Peter & his staff are some of the best (if not the best) manual traders in the world. They're all gods & idols to me; & the reason; that I know, that I'm no where near close to reaching the maximum potential BF has to offer.

[JasBarrow]

My advice to the OP is get out as soon as you can, avoid negative people at all costs, they will just drag you down, avoiding negative family people is hard but 'friends' is easier and in the long term you will be better for it. I am sure Peter Webb did a video that talked about surrounding yourself with positive people and avoiding negative people.

Good advice and I agree with every word. Unfortunately circumstances don't allow it, I think we're pretty much stuck with each other for at least the next 6-7 months.

I've had a long running disagreement with Simon about the impact of psychology and I have to admit that he's right. The better the edge, the less 'psychology' you need. Any edge that requires you to behave like an automoton and never have normal human emotions and failings isn't much of an edge. A rock solid edge you can qualify and quantify is essential and removes a whole raft of pitfalls.

I don't have an 'edge' that I'm aware of, I don't know something that nobody else knows. I just open a market and try and interpret whats going on, and hopefully take advantage of a move if and when it happens. And I guess thats where my question about having to be positive 100% of the time comes in. I find for me I have to be positive even between races because depending on whatever interaction I've had with my housemates I can sometimes feel myself drifting into negative thoughts and it definitely seems to have an impact on my trading. If I suffer a loss I definitely feel like its harder to accept when I feel this way.

[ShaunWhite]

I just open a market and try and interpret whats going on.

As you're finding out that's fine if you can stay 'in the zone', but who can? Being Mystic Meg and predicting the future is a tough ask, you probably only have a tiny advantage that's easily lost. Sitting down and thinking "I'll do this, only when I see that" will take a lot of pressure off your decision making and you should be able to "do that" whether you're in a good place or a bad one, in theory

Btw what's their negativity centered around, their own issues, or are they dragging you down about your business/hobby/career/2nd job (or whatever trading is to you) ? Either you need to detatch yourself from their problems, or remind them that your life isn't their concern.

I don't actually mind negative people, I don't feel I need to wrap myself in bubblewrap to avoid them personally, I like the challenge of 'Fck you, you're wrong', it motivates me. They certainly motivate me more than the fluffy 'you can do it' crowd handing out prizes for finishing mid-div in the school egg and spoon race, that just breeds satisfaction with mediocrity; unless you have a personal need to satisfy, which I don't really have.

We're all different though, as they say, every market has a strategy and visa versa, but every personality has a strategy and visa versa is the first thing to crack before you can get to that level of sophistication.

[ruthlessimon]

Hmmmm, not sure Peter Webb would agree, who is a big promoter of psychology. Or do you think he is all smoke and mirrors with his results!?

I don't wanna take this thread massively off topic, but there was a question on psychology to succeed I think

Can you explain to me how psychology helps me trade S1?

Cos Excel can't even trade it profitability, so I ain't got a clue how I'm meant to do any better!

What does frustrate me (bad psychology perhaps - out of hrs psychology), is when I tweak a variable, with the expectation that it'll improve a part of the strategy - which comes true (S2, S3, S4) - yet the variable alone isn't enough to make the strategy profitable.

That really does drive me nutty!!

i.e. S1 it's not clear whether it's better to back or lay. S2 onwards; it's clear as crystal that it's better to lay - but at the same time we don't want to lay it - because it's not profitable to lay

[ShaunWhite]

I don't wanna take this thread massively off topic,

...but you're trying to

This guy's a million miles from needing to get into your level of detail. He's just trying to deal with a couple of dickheads atm.

[spreadbetting]

My problem is: - anyone can be a psychology expert, but not everyone can be a trading expert.

Bit of a sweeping statement, I'm sure plenty of psychologists would disagree with you

Depending on your interpretation of 'trading expert', I could easily teach someone to do what I do and that'd give them the potential of a very healthy salary but certainly couldn't get someone to pass a psychology degree. Whether they were able to capitalise on what I'd teach them would all come down to their mindset/psychology as trading just isn't win, win, win and there's usually a few big losses thrown in to shake up the mix.

I'm not a big fan of the way psychlogy is touted on the forum, as it does seem to be a carrot on a stick a lot of the time, but in order to maximise your edge manually trading, and even botting, you do need that resilience/mindset/pschology to ensure you stick to the plan.

We could even argue you'd benefit from spending time working on your own mindset/psychology, Simon, as despite having numerous 'edges' you're still reluctant to actually apply them in the market with real money. From what I can gather you obviously want to hone these 'edges' to the nth degree to understand exactly why they're there, whereas the majority of us would simply try and cash in whilst we can and learn alongside them operating.

[JasBarrow]

Btw what's their negativity centered around, their own issues, or are they dragging you down about your business/hobby/career/2nd job (or whatever trading is to you) ? Either you need to detatch yourself from their problems, or remind them that your life isn't their concern.

Their negativity is centred around themselves and their own issues and life experience. Its not aimed at me at all, they're actually nice guys I've lived with them both now for almost 3 months, one of them I knew socially before moving in with them. Their both different though, the first guy who I knew previously just moans about everything, no matter what the issue he'll find a fault and complain about it so thats the first type of negativity. The second guy is more negative about himself, constantly feeling sorry for himself but doesnt have the ambition or motivation to improve his lot. just happy to plod along without trying to change anything. Practically every conversation you have with him about any topic will eventually come back to talking about himself and his issues and problems so thats the second type of negativity. Even my girlfriend said how depressing the place was and she was only there an hour!

I spent the first couple of months trying to be a good housemate by listening and offering advice where I could but it didnt change anything so I'm just at the point now of having to smile and nod and try to avoid them as much as I can without creating any tension. We dont argue and we get along fine its just not good for my glass half full approach to life!

I suppose the trick is to try and build a bubble around yourself but when dealing with the same issues day after day its not easy. Positivity is definitely a state of mind but the environment we live in has such a massive effect.

[ShaunWhite]

Btw what's their negativity centered around, their own issues, or are they dragging you down about your business/hobby/career/2nd job (or whatever trading is to you) ? Either you need to detatch yourself from their problems, or remind them that your life isn't their concern.

Their negativity is centred around themselves and their own issues and life experience.

I recongise the dynamic you describe, at least you're fully aware of it. It might come down to just trading when you feel right about it for now, and maybe fill the more negative days with videos, reading, playing with results spreadsheets and looking at data. Like a golfer hitting that shot, clicking 'back' is just the culmination of all the study and practice. There's a lot you can be doing other than playing the ladder, that's time well spent too.

If you can't resist playing on the ladder, at least adjust your stakes. Rate your attitude out of 10 and scale your stake accordingly. £2 on ify days, more when you're on fire.

[JasBarrow]

I recongise the dynamic you describe, at least you're fully aware of it. It might come down to just trading when you feel right about it for now, and maybe fill the more negative days with videos, reading, playing with results spreadsheets and looking at data. Like a golfer hitting that shot, clicking 'back' is just the culmination of all the study and practice. There's a lot you can be doing other than playing the ladder, that's time well spent too.

Yes good advice, I've been trying to be more aware of how I feel in the moment lately when getting involved in a market, probably all I can do for now.