It must be quite possible to earn £100k a year without paying any premium charge at all!
PC is based on your profit/loss ratio, not your actual profit. A trader/botter could win £100M and lose £99M - his commission could wipe out any PC liability.
It must be quite possible to earn £100k a year without paying any premium charge at all!
I assume you mean an expert in the use of mathematics and related subjects, particularly in investment management and stock trading and not a long pole for propelling a boat, esp a punt, by pushing on the bottom of a river or lake.
So would I Derek but to say "Betfair ninehundredthousandaires" doesn't roll off the tongue so easily!
ShaunWhite wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:51 pmSince when has 30% of a million in profit been an average household income?
Shaun I was using the term "millionaires" loosely … it was not targeted to £1 million profit, £1 million turnover nor 1 million transactions, it was intended to just say "the big boys (or girls) on Betfair". There is no intention to be precise, I think most reading the post know who/what I am referring to. I understand in the early days they used to have BOTs trawling for books under 100% but I would have thought with the enormous number of markets today and the increased competition that opportunity is greatly reduced so I was just wondering what they do now. But I suppose they could be true 'millionaires' because I hear of some with over £1 million in their Betfair accounts.ShaunWhite wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:52 pmI know that's what he said in the posting text 'milionS in turnover' but I took the title 'Betfair millionaires' to be people who actually earned a million (gross?). If betfair millionaires just means turnover then there's loads of us who'd qualify. 30% of gross profit is still a decent amount compared to most businesses.
Why is it anybody's problem? … I only asked what do they doShaunWhite wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:19 pmI'm sure we'd agree once the wires are uncrossed. It's all just other people's problems anyway.
Alex, I didn't think you did mean profit and as I have said earlier in this message I was using the term "millionaires" loosely in an attempt to avoid a precise definition of a variable group of people but clearly failed from the comments trying to define a 'Betfair millionaire'! I put the term in single quotes to signify "don't take it literally" but that didn't seem to help.alexmr2 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:56 pmMisunderstanding when I mentioned "millions in turnover" in the other thread I didn't mean millions in profit in a single year.firlandsfarm wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:46 am
I'm just curious, you hear of these 'Betfair millionaires' but what do they actually do?
Big boys, top dogs, fat cats, high-fliers, etc.firlandsfarm wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:43 amSo would I Derek but to say "Betfair ninehundredthousandaires" doesn't roll off the tongue so easily!
If this is your primary, original question what they do now from my experience is that the effective bots are not trying to get free money from the rounds, but instead they are tied to the prices at Pinnacle and other market leading bookies. They offer prices that aren't value compared to the bookie market hoping for fat fingers, recreational punters or traders looking to get out, to take it. And they take prices that are value in comparison to the bookies if anyone leaves a price hanging too long.firlandsfarm wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:43 amI understand in the early days they used to have BOTs trawling for books under 100% but I would have thought with the enormous number of markets today and the increased competition that opportunity is greatly reduced so I was just wondering what they do now. But I suppose they could be true 'millionaires' because I hear of some with over £1 million in their Betfair accounts.
Thanks for that Kafkaesque, very interesting reading … sounds like a form of arbitrage but with an element of risk when they wait for the Exchange side to be filled. I guess the model is that if the bookmaker side of the pair of transactions is at neutral value then if the Exchange side of the pair is not matched the bookmaker side will average out as no loss/no gain. I know some use BOG in a similar way but the BOG bookies are prone to close accounts.Kafkaesque wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:08 pm... what they do now from my experience is that the effective bots are not trying to get free money from the rounds, but instead they are tied to the prices at Pinnacle and other market leading bookies. They offer prices that aren't value compared to the bookie market hoping for fat fingers, recreational punters or traders looking to get out, to take it. And they take prices that are value in comparison to the bookies if anyone leaves a price hanging too long.
The new arms race isn't being fastest to overrounds but prices outside BF and predicting how they will make Exchange prices move. In the cases where Pinnacle moves before the Exchange and not the other way around, clearly. As both can happen.
Where you see it most clearly is in markets where the exchange is inefficient and poor in terms of liquidity, and Pinnacle and their peers are strong players, such as the NHL. The exchange often have several ticks between the best back and lay price. You can clearly see it moving only when Pinnacle does and you can rarely if ever, that I have spotted, get a price on the exchange that beats Pinnacle.firlandsfarm wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:05 pmThanks for that Kafkaesque, very interesting reading … sounds like a form of arbitrage but with an element of risk when they wait for the Exchange side to be filled. I guess the model is that if the bookmaker side of the pair of transactions is at neutral value then if the Exchange side of the pair is not matched the bookmaker side will average out as no loss/no gain. I know some use BOG in a similar way but the BOG bookies are prone to close accounts.Kafkaesque wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:08 pm... what they do now from my experience is that the effective bots are not trying to get free money from the rounds, but instead they are tied to the prices at Pinnacle and other market leading bookies. They offer prices that aren't value compared to the bookie market hoping for fat fingers, recreational punters or traders looking to get out, to take it. And they take prices that are value in comparison to the bookies if anyone leaves a price hanging too long.
The new arms race isn't being fastest to overrounds but prices outside BF and predicting how they will make Exchange prices move. In the cases where Pinnacle moves before the Exchange and not the other way around, clearly. As both can happen.
I assume they have APIs into their bookmakers to automate the process.
I have never used Pinnacle as they don't do UK racing but I'm preparing to move into football next season so they have come to my attention.