It baffles me that I see so much discussion going on regarding automation and far less about manual trading.
Is everyone so good at manual trading that they step up their game and chase automation or are people skipping manual work altogether?
I know betangel is primarily the forum for the tool that was developed but so much automation talk is discouraging, I feel left out if I don't start digging into the subject, but I think manual trading is where its at to perhaps make a living out of.
So much discussion about automation on the forum
Depends what you are aiming for, none of the big players are manual.tiberigc wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:19 amIt baffles me that I see so much discussion going on regarding automation and far less about manual trading.
Is everyone so good at manual trading that they step up their game and chase automation or are people skipping manual work altogether?
I know betangel is primarily the forum for the tool that was developed but so much automation talk is discouraging, I feel left out if I don't start digging into the subject, but I think manual trading is where its at to perhaps make a living out of.
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spreadbetting
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Probably just seems like it because the automated players have more time on their hands and are more active posters. Whether it's manual or automated the advice is usually generic with the odd winky smiley so don't worry you're missing out. Just concentrate on manual trading if that's where you see your opportunities lie.
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Bear's The Name
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In my case it's because I have another business and a young family and no desire to sit trading for hours at a time. Nor am I here to seek the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
I love the challenge of using automation to seek out an edge - that means experimenting by developing and testing automated strategies that can run in the background all day and eke out a modest profit over time.
I've tried loads of things over the years, some worked, most didn't. It's a fascinating and ever changing game which I love the complexity of.
I am moderately succesful in the long term but certainly not making a living - enough for a couple of nice holidays each year, that sort of thing. I love the fact that I can set things up, leave them running all day and go and get on with my life. Of course there are pitfalls and bad days, but all part and parcel of the game.
In theory if I bet 10x what I am now I could earn a living, however, I have found that once I scale up beyond a certain point, the methods become unprofitable.
I love the challenge of using automation to seek out an edge - that means experimenting by developing and testing automated strategies that can run in the background all day and eke out a modest profit over time.
I've tried loads of things over the years, some worked, most didn't. It's a fascinating and ever changing game which I love the complexity of.
I am moderately succesful in the long term but certainly not making a living - enough for a couple of nice holidays each year, that sort of thing. I love the fact that I can set things up, leave them running all day and go and get on with my life. Of course there are pitfalls and bad days, but all part and parcel of the game.
In theory if I bet 10x what I am now I could earn a living, however, I have found that once I scale up beyond a certain point, the methods become unprofitable.
Probably going to say something controversial here but why change the habit of a lifetime.
Automation CONTROLS the market. Watch the markets +5:00 watch how slowly it moves and how narrow the range is then watch it after 5:00 minutes. The volatility increase and the volumes start to move upwards. This isn't because there are hundreds of manual traders waiting for the 5 minute marker its because all the bots are getting ready to activate. The same thing happens at 2 minutes and there is one massive bot that activates at +1:55 and swallows up around £2-3000 in 2-3 seconds given the right set up.
The thing with the automation traders is thier accounts are significantly larger than the manual traders, they are highly professional after all. They understand the markets significantly more than manual traders and understand the power of Bet Angel software more than 'retail traders' they are here to make real money not £30 per race. I'd say 80% of Bet Angel subscribers dont really understand how powerful the software is. I'm one of them. Its hugly complicated to learn how to set up an excel sheet that places opening trades based on MACD and MA signals, then attach a strategy to it, but it can be done. People with a working knowlegde of Excel are at a major advantage.
Ask yourself why one ladder goes up and another goes down by 20% in 2-3 seconds, it's not because there are 2000 old men putting £5 each on the favourite at the same time. Its because the automation files have idendified something across the market (created by other automation files) that the massive accounts have identified as an opportunity to manipulate the markets in thier favour or take advantage of a situation. Thats the nature of trading.
To summerise, I'd say Automation controls 80% of the maket between 2-5 minutes pre off. People who have massive bank accounts who can repeatedly open positions until the market goes in their favour, manual traders dont stand a chance short/long term. So, if you cannot beat them, join them.
Personally, I'd prefer to see automation banned from Betfair then we are all on a level playing field but thats never going to happen.
Automation CONTROLS the market. Watch the markets +5:00 watch how slowly it moves and how narrow the range is then watch it after 5:00 minutes. The volatility increase and the volumes start to move upwards. This isn't because there are hundreds of manual traders waiting for the 5 minute marker its because all the bots are getting ready to activate. The same thing happens at 2 minutes and there is one massive bot that activates at +1:55 and swallows up around £2-3000 in 2-3 seconds given the right set up.
The thing with the automation traders is thier accounts are significantly larger than the manual traders, they are highly professional after all. They understand the markets significantly more than manual traders and understand the power of Bet Angel software more than 'retail traders' they are here to make real money not £30 per race. I'd say 80% of Bet Angel subscribers dont really understand how powerful the software is. I'm one of them. Its hugly complicated to learn how to set up an excel sheet that places opening trades based on MACD and MA signals, then attach a strategy to it, but it can be done. People with a working knowlegde of Excel are at a major advantage.
Ask yourself why one ladder goes up and another goes down by 20% in 2-3 seconds, it's not because there are 2000 old men putting £5 each on the favourite at the same time. Its because the automation files have idendified something across the market (created by other automation files) that the massive accounts have identified as an opportunity to manipulate the markets in thier favour or take advantage of a situation. Thats the nature of trading.
To summerise, I'd say Automation controls 80% of the maket between 2-5 minutes pre off. People who have massive bank accounts who can repeatedly open positions until the market goes in their favour, manual traders dont stand a chance short/long term. So, if you cannot beat them, join them.
Personally, I'd prefer to see automation banned from Betfair then we are all on a level playing field but thats never going to happen.
Last edited by xtrader16 on Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If you are a serious Betfair Trader and want to make serious money it can ONLY be done via Automation. The issue is most people work alone and find it difficult to find/create/set up a strategy that works. If I worked phyically alongside other Traders it would be easier as a team but the vast majority of people work alone and struggle to get to the automated promised land, especially if youve never heard of a Macro yet alone know what it does.
Professionals use Automation - Amateurs trade manually. Decide which one you want to be. I should listen to my own advice.
Professionals use Automation - Amateurs trade manually. Decide which one you want to be. I should listen to my own advice.
Last edited by xtrader16 on Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.
this is a crucial point tbh. i think some folks see automation as a complete delegation of all activities to a rules file. au contraire - it would appear that *assisted* trading is made all the more competative by using automation underneath servants which aare exclusively manual activities. weirdly, even the hounslow flash crash trader (Nav) used a combination of manual trading augmented by helper tools that navigated and shortcutted participation in certain segments of the market...
use it -abuse it!!
don't want to sound like groundhog day, but re-read the previous posts that talk about automation being used by manual traders in the form of servants etc... this gives you the best of both!
I think you might be underestimating the automated players if you think we use excel and MACD/MA signals.xtrader16 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:52 amI'd say 80% of Bet Angel subscribers dont really understand how powerful the software is. I'm one of them. Its hugly complicated to learn how to set up an excel sheet that places opening trades based on MACD and MA signals, then attach a strategy to it, but it can be done. People with a working knowlegde of Excel are at a major advantage.
There's always going to be a place in the market for both and as someone said earlier in the thread the vast array of options and features for automation means alot of people post to ask how they work, how they would automate a specfic task with them etc.
So I wouldn't necessarily take the number of manual/automated related posts as a reflection of how many people use one or the other.
In terms of volume I will trade far more markets with automation than I do manually but over the years my overall profits have consistantly been weighted atleast 70/30 towards my manual trading (that split does differ slightly depending on the sport,but its only Greyhounds where my automated profits are higher than manual).
In recent years this has become a little blurred due to the introduction of servants and now features like markers and Stored Values that can be displayed from a rules file (Guardian or Servant) to help manual traders.
The markets would be a completly different place without one or the other which would then dramatically effect those still in it so think we'll continue to see a place for both for a long time to come
So I wouldn't necessarily take the number of manual/automated related posts as a reflection of how many people use one or the other.
In terms of volume I will trade far more markets with automation than I do manually but over the years my overall profits have consistantly been weighted atleast 70/30 towards my manual trading (that split does differ slightly depending on the sport,but its only Greyhounds where my automated profits are higher than manual).
In recent years this has become a little blurred due to the introduction of servants and now features like markers and Stored Values that can be displayed from a rules file (Guardian or Servant) to help manual traders.
The markets would be a completly different place without one or the other which would then dramatically effect those still in it so think we'll continue to see a place for both for a long time to come
you're not, but my pessimistic nature says that this kind of information is harder to come by or grasps by yourself whilst learning to read the market and manually trading has more resources available as it can be talked about on a generic level.
Fixed info like what markers/signals to use is a better kept secret to discover.