How to avoid the Betfair premium charge

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mickey007
Posts: 64
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:11 pm

sounds so easy, but i still dont understand it.... :(
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ShaunWhite
Posts: 9731
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

mickey007 wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:42 pm
sounds so easy, but i still dont understand it.... :(
It's related to market efficiency mickey, back every favourite and over time all you are down is your commission....ish.
spreadbetting
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:06 pm

mickey007 wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:57 pm
Hi All, annyone know how to increase the generated commision?
I am now at 9.16 % but wanna get it back over 10% but dont know how.
Hope someone can give me a magic tip!
Just do cross market arbs against similar football markets ie 0-0 and under 0.5 goals etc you'll find plenty of 1 tick arbs ANC even simply backing and laying at the same odds won't cost you money but pay commission instead of pc
mickey007
Posts: 64
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:11 pm

Still dont get it gents.....
My premium rate is 50%, so even if I win £50 , I will pay a PC. So if I get my generated commision from 9.16% to 10%, I will drop down to 40% pc. But I dont understand how to increase it...
xitian
Posts: 457
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:08 pm

I'm impressed that you've managed to win over £250,000 but still haven't understood how commission and PC works.

As spreadbetting suggested, arbing something like football correct score 0-0 and over/under 0.5 is a good example. They are identical markets, so it's perfect for arbing.

Example:
Back 0-0, at 2.0 for £10
Lay Under 0.5 at 2.0 for £10

Let's assume there's a goal and the game does not finish 0-0 and you pay a base commission rate of 3% (for the sake of simplicity). You lose £10 from your back, you win £10 from your lay. You pay £0.3 commission on your winning bet (and you have generated (0.3 + 0.3)/2 = £0.3 commission). You have generated commission but have a gross profit of 0. £0.3 gets taken from your win immediately, but this will reduce your Premium Charge on Wed, since you only pay PC for any amount less than 50% of your gross profits that week. So if your PC was going to be £100 that week, it'll now only be £99.7 because of that extra bit of commission you generated. But because you've generated commission and your total gross profit has not increased, your overall weekly commission generated % will have gone up as well - eventually you'll hit 10% average if you carry on generating commission at a higher rate than 10% by churning like above. As others have mentioned, maybe you can even win some money along the way. e.g. Win £0.5 gross from the arb, but generate £0.3 commission, and therefore generate 60% commission in that instance.

It's actually pretty simple.
LinusP
Posts: 1871
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:45 pm

I have found laying strategies (horse racing) to be great at generating commission, started off at an attempt to break even but has turned into a few that generate a healthy profit whilst still boosting commission and keeping my base rate sub 3%.

I looked into arbing but seems too much of a faff when having to deal with multiple markets and a low prospect of finding an edge.
kiwidude
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:52 am

Hi guys as of current I have only bet on 110 markets so I'm still a ways off being eligible for PC however my total charges are just 8.05% so I'm looking to educate myself on how to get this above 20% before I hit 250 markets.

The above example with the 0-0 soccer score was good but how often do these opportunities arise? I had a look at some of the EPL markets and there is very little liquidity in the correct score/under 0.5 markets, also the lay price is higher for all the markets I've checked.

Also does it have to be using different markets? For example with the soccer would backing and laying the correct score option rather than backing correct score, laying under 0.5 goals not work?

Please forgive me for my inexperience, I'm sure it's frustrating for PC veterans to read but any help would be much appreciated!

Thanks
Diacritical Quark
Posts: 175
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:55 pm

xitian wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:19 pm
I'm impressed that you've managed to win over £250,000 but still haven't understood how commission and PC works.

As spreadbetting suggested, arbing something like football correct score 0-0 and over/under 0.5 is a good example. They are identical markets, so it's perfect for arbing.

Example:
Back 0-0, at 2.0 for £10
Lay Under 0.5 at 2.0 for £10

Let's assume there's a goal and the game does not finish 0-0 and you pay a base commission rate of 3% (for the sake of simplicity). You lose £10 from your back, you win £10 from your lay. You pay £0.3 commission on your winning bet (and you have generated (0.3 + 0.3)/2 = £0.3 commission). You have generated commission but have a gross profit of 0. £0.3 gets taken from your win immediately, but this will reduce your Premium Charge on Wed, since you only pay PC for any amount less than 50% of your gross profits that week. So if your PC was going to be £100 that week, it'll now only be £99.7 because of that extra bit of commission you generated. But because you've generated commission and your total gross profit has not increased, your overall weekly commission generated % will have gone up as well - eventually you'll hit 10% average if you carry on generating commission at a higher rate than 10% by churning like above. As others have mentioned, maybe you can even win some money along the way. e.g. Win £0.5 gross from the arb, but generate £0.3 commission, and therefore generate 60% commission in that instance.

It's actually pretty simple.
I'm trying to put a bot together to do this but I'm having some difficulty with it triggering (although I'm trying for a 1 tick difference)

I don't suppose anyone would be kind enough to just have a quick butcher's hook at where I'm going wrong would they? :roll:
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goat68
Posts: 2019
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:53 pm
Location: Hampshire, UK

Is there a way of determining my account lifetime Commission and Profit?
I can see on my current card details a net deposit of -£5k, but no previous details nor commission?
deestar
Posts: 178
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:17 pm

goat68 wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:02 am
Is there a way of determining my account lifetime Commission and Profit?
I can see on my current card details a net deposit of -£5k, but no previous details nor commission?
If you get in touch with the helpdesk they can send you a file showing your lifetime position which you can update yourself each week. The website https://myaccount.betfair.com/activity/premium-charges will show lifetime gross profit (GP) and commission generated (CG) but not lifetime net profit.
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goat68
Posts: 2019
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:53 pm
Location: Hampshire, UK

deestar wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:08 am
goat68 wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:02 am
Is there a way of determining my account lifetime Commission and Profit?
I can see on my current card details a net deposit of -£5k, but no previous details nor commission?
If you get in touch with the helpdesk they can send you a file showing your lifetime position which you can update yourself each week. The website https://myaccount.betfair.com/activity/premium-charges will show lifetime gross profit (GP) and commission generated (CG) but not lifetime net profit.
Thanks, I've got my lifetime stats now, and due to all my match betting I am currently in a good position, net profit £60 !! Gen commission £500
So good for the moment...
However, I was wondering, I am currently on the Betfair Basic plan with 2% commission, do you think it would be wise to go up to the 5% plan so as to generate more commission.. ?
Thanks
spreadbetting
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:06 pm

Depends on what you're doing,or expect to be doing. If you're just match betting there's no need. If you're switching to trading and expect to be successful, that £500 commission can easily get wiped out in a week. Plan ahead by all means but don't overreact.
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goat68
Posts: 2019
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:53 pm
Location: Hampshire, UK

spreadbetting wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:26 am
Depends on what you're doing,or expect to be doing. If you're just match betting there's no need. If you're switching to trading and expect to be successful, that £500 commission can easily get wiped out in a week. Plan ahead by all means but don't overreact.
I'm now trading only, I'm expecting to be profitable! So thinking 5% commission might be a better tradeoff to keep PC further away... ?
spreadbetting
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:06 pm

It can be a double edged sword trying to avoid PC , I'd wait until you have a better idea of your strike rates, lifetime Comms etc before considering upping your comm rate. It'd be pointless upping your rate if it means you'll pay more in Comms at 5% than you would simply paying PC charges.

The main thing to maintain as a profitable trader is to keep lifetime Comms greater than 10% for when you hit PC2. But you're a long way off that and can easily adjust things when you have s clearer picture of how much comm you'd be expected to generate.
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Kai
Posts: 6100
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:21 pm

goat68 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:34 am
I'm now trading only, I'm expecting to be profitable! So thinking 5% commission might be a better tradeoff to keep PC further away... ?
Should listen to SB here, that's great advice. You should let your averages form on their own naturally, it will be a direct reflection of your current trading ability, seems too early to think about premium charge. You haven't even confirmed your edge and profitability to yourself over a longer period. Probaby best to take one step at a time, since it's very easy to stumble, even when things are seemingly going perfect it can all come crashing down within one day.
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