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professorboom
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:43 pm

Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:33 pm

Hi all,

so usualy i trade manualy and i keep an eye on my bank balance so i know wether to go ahead or not etc.

however id like to try some automated trades when im out working, is there anyway to know or calculate how much in total is neeed to ensure i have enough money to survive all automations

im assuming if i back at a £!0 stake the most i would need to lay is £10 so £20 total

and id it was a £10 lay i would still need a max £10 to trade out no matter what happens

thanks

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ShaunWhite
Posts: 6188
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:52 pm

You only need to cover the liability of your net position so if you back for £10 you don't need extra money to cover the lay.... Unless it was a lay that would take you to a liability of >£10.

But as for bank size you'll need enough to cover your max liability at any time (and there may be markets that settle late) plus the maximum amount you could expect to lose on any given day even if the automation is long-term profitable. I'm sure you realise that nothing you're likely to find will make a profit everyday or possibly even every week.

Generally though your bank shouldn't hold more than you'd be prepared to lose. As you'll be relying entirely on something unattended there's always the possibility of api glitches or internet outages, and although those will be a long term breakeven they might cause unexpected really bad outcomes you're not prepared to accept at this stage.

Have you tried running your stuff in practice mode, that might be a good idea for your first trials?

professorboom
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:43 pm

Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:04 pm

i think i will use the practice mode, its just that the maths winds me up at times

so basicly if i had £10 in my acc only and made a £10 back bet, and i had nothing left in balance, are you sayin i could still lay?

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LeTiss
Posts: 4748
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:04 pm

Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:22 pm

Tread carefully with practice mode. If you use it too much Betfair will close you down

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Derek27
Posts: 8661
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:44 am
Location: UK

Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:10 pm

You haven't said how many trades you'll be doing while out working. even if you knew there's no way of knowing how much each trade could lose so it's not easy to work out.

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ShaunWhite
Posts: 6188
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

Sat Jul 25, 2020 10:26 pm

professorboom wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:04 pm
i think i will use the practice mode, its just that the maths winds me up at times

so basicly if i had £10 in my acc only and made a £10 back bet, and i had nothing left in balance, are you sayin i could still lay?
You could lay the same selection because the moment you did it, you're liability would be reduced. Betfair checks what your position would be should your new bet be matched to assess your liability.

Roughly speaking,
If you bet £10 you have a £10 liability if the horse loses.
Without the price moving, you lay to win £10 if the horse loses.
Total liabilty...nothing. Market shows a green zero across the card and your account immediately has the £10 back in it ready for the next trade.

But
If the price had risen and you were £1 red across the card you'd have £9 showing in your account.
If the price had fallen and you were net £1 green across the card you'd have £10 showing in your account....and you'll get the £1 when the market closes making £11 ready for the next race.

Try it manually first and watch how your balance changes.

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ShaunWhite
Posts: 6188
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

Sat Jul 25, 2020 10:31 pm

professorboom wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:04 pm
i think i will use the practice mode, its just that the maths winds me up at times

so basicly if i had £10 in my acc only and made a £10 back bet, and i had nothing left in balance, are you sayin i could still lay?
You'd be showing £0 in your account but that's only going to remain the case if the horse loses. If the horse wins you'd have £x and so Befiar effectively allow you to use that £x to bet that it will lose (to lay).

Both can happen, you can't lose your back bet and lose your lay bet, so they only consider the liability as being the worst of the two cases.

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Tuco
Posts: 362
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:43 pm

Sat Jul 25, 2020 10:44 pm

I personally don't recommend practice mode as it annoys the hell out of betfair and lessons aren't really learnt unless you're playing for real money.

It's a bit like learning to ride a bike - you can watch all the Tour de France, MotoGP, Olympic Velodrome events you like, read as many books as you like on 'the theory of cycling', but until you actually stride the saddle and start peddling (without stabilisers) you know nothing about cycling. Yes you'll scrape your hand against the wall and occasionally fall off, but that is the process of learning

Just play for small nominal stakes is my best advice.
Last edited by Tuco on Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

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ShaunWhite
Posts: 6188
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

Sat Jul 25, 2020 10:49 pm

Totally agree with the Practice Mode comments. I should have clarified and said to use it purely to test it's doing what you expect it to do. Functionally that is, not in terms of making or losing money. You didn't sound very experienced and it's probably your first bot, so there's a strong chance it won't be doing quite what you hope. Leaving it alone all day might turn out to be expensive or shortlived.

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