Thought I would start a separate thread for discussions on China as I couldn't find one.
I was listening to a podcast yesterday that was interesting in that some of the guests were discussing how quite a few companies in the UK are outsourcing to Chinese companies to produce their goods, nothing new there, but that the China companies were then outsourcing that work to companies in Africa, in particular Ghana to produce the goods as the costs of production in China are getting to high due to wage inflation etc.
I hadn't really heard of that happening, I mean the outsourcing from China to Ghana etc. There has however been a lot of talk about how costs of production are increasing in China and they are losing their competitive edge to some extent.
China
Oh yes, massive trend. Not just Africa. Workers in Burma, Cambodia, Bangladesh... all finding themselves in the global economy.
China is like every other country, they have to go up the value chain or you just tread water. How they do that is the interesting trend of our times.
Up to now they've nicked much of their value but that only gets you so far.
China is like every other country, they have to go up the value chain or you just tread water. How they do that is the interesting trend of our times.
Up to now they've nicked much of their value but that only gets you so far.
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andyfuller
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When I have been to Africa the last few years there is a lot of Chinese people. They have well and truly got their feet under the table while the west have been napping. I am certain we in the west are going to be paying the price for this for many decades to come as the new world order is settled.
What I hadn't really heard about though was the outsourcing of the Chinnese companies to these African countries etc. I assumed that the work was still really being done by the factories in China.
Whereas China is reaping the benefits of its growth I don't see that happening to the same extent in Africa as I think they have/are being taken for a ride by the Chinese who have bought up the mines and the infrastructure etc on the cheap and the people of Africa will not reap the rewards they deserve over the coming decades.
What I hadn't really heard about though was the outsourcing of the Chinnese companies to these African countries etc. I assumed that the work was still really being done by the factories in China.
Whereas China is reaping the benefits of its growth I don't see that happening to the same extent in Africa as I think they have/are being taken for a ride by the Chinese who have bought up the mines and the infrastructure etc on the cheap and the people of Africa will not reap the rewards they deserve over the coming decades.
sadly the africans were shafted by the west; the current state of the whole continent is mainly a direct result of them being fecked over by the west, and by the proxy wars, fought on behalf of the east and west for ideological reasons during the cold war.
now it would seem its chinas turn to do em over. seems africa will always be shafted. very sad.
now it would seem its chinas turn to do em over. seems africa will always be shafted. very sad.
That's just not reality. Africa is a basket case because of Africa.to75ne wrote:sadly the africans were shafted by the west; the current state of the whole continent is mainly a direct result of them being fecked over by the west, and by the proxy wars, fought on behalf of the east and west for ideological reasons during the cold war.
now it would seem its chinas turn to do em over. seems africa will always be shafted. very sad.
They've had so much money thrown at them it's flipping ridiculous, most by the West it should be said and sod all from China. Look what Europe was able to do with Marshall Aid in the 1940s and 1950s - rejeuvenated a ruined continent in the blink of an eye. Africa has absorbed a dozen Marshall Aids in the 20th century and the result is pure shit, frankly.
The only credible African country at the end of the twentieth century is South Africa. One bloody country.
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steven1976
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Aren't they outsourcing to UK also these days! Many reasons it could be that they are producing in Africa but I doubt its just down to production costs although I understand labour costs are increasing in cities.
In China I believe they get a lot of incentives from the government to export to some extent makes it impossible to compete with from other countries. Therefore on some products there may have been anti dumping taxes placed on products from China to try and protect jobs in other countries. Therefore some investment could be moving out?
Or simply they may want to be front of the queue for the natural reserves?
In China I believe they get a lot of incentives from the government to export to some extent makes it impossible to compete with from other countries. Therefore on some products there may have been anti dumping taxes placed on products from China to try and protect jobs in other countries. Therefore some investment could be moving out?
Or simply they may want to be front of the queue for the natural reserves?
I have and I've worked in NGOs at the front.to75ne wrote:kelpie read an history book
Trust me, Africa owns it's own mess and representing it any other way is not helpful. Smart brains in the aid community stopped the hand wringing decades ago.
Check out Robert Calderisi for a realistic view - of hundreds along these lines. He's also worked for NGOs.
"The Trouble with Africa: Why Foreign Aid Isn’t Working"
and
"Turning on the Lights: A Short History of Foreign Aid in Africa"
Cheers.
China has fingers in pies all over the world as they need the resources to sustain their growth. So they have been buying up large chunks of natural resource from all over the world and often put a reciprocal deal in place to help their manufacturers.
I have a friend in China and something you don't see much from the outside is just how extreme the property market is getting there. The new middle classes are buying property purely on the basis that its value is rising, so loads of construction is going on to fulfil this demand despite the fact a lot of this property is empty. It's just pure speculation. That could be a potential problem in the not too distant future.
I have a friend in China and something you don't see much from the outside is just how extreme the property market is getting there. The new middle classes are buying property purely on the basis that its value is rising, so loads of construction is going on to fulfil this demand despite the fact a lot of this property is empty. It's just pure speculation. That could be a potential problem in the not too distant future.
Vast cities are being built across China at a rate of ten a year.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbDeS_mXMnM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbDeS_mXMnM
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steven1976
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Got to plan for the future! 
I actually believe China is along way from bad times. I'd call it preparation for world domination building these cities.
Lets not forget china is only really a few years old in what is happening there. They are money hungry than anywhere else and they are not sitting around moaning about benefits and the government. They will be the biggest economy without a doubt in a few years if they aren't already.
I actually believe China is along way from bad times. I'd call it preparation for world domination building these cities.
Lets not forget china is only really a few years old in what is happening there. They are money hungry than anywhere else and they are not sitting around moaning about benefits and the government. They will be the biggest economy without a doubt in a few years if they aren't already.
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CaerMyrddin
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Everything is falling to place. China was the biggest economy in the 17th century but industrial revolution has done the trick to get the west far ahead. An awkward way to rule the country has kept them from keeping the pace during many years, but they will claim their natural place imho. It will be a bumpy road, but it's fairly clear what's ahead. They won't be able to compete in terms of low prices in the long term, but should they?
I'm with kelpie on Africa's view. The way societies are organized there and their culture makes it much harder to improve things. Only been to a couple of countries there, but didn't have a submersive experience. But I have a friend that lives there (was with him last weekend btw) and the things he tells are daunting. Corruption, corruption and more corruption. Last week he was stopped by the cops (that drive big priced cars although their wages disallow it) that are always trying to catch you on something to pick their bribe. As they were searching his car for irregularities, a car crashed a motorcycle (and the motorcycle driver eventually died) and they didn't even move. They kept looking his car. No one around asked the cops for help.
So, if you consider the implications of this kind of society, blaming the West for what happens there is OTT, imho.
I'm with kelpie on Africa's view. The way societies are organized there and their culture makes it much harder to improve things. Only been to a couple of countries there, but didn't have a submersive experience. But I have a friend that lives there (was with him last weekend btw) and the things he tells are daunting. Corruption, corruption and more corruption. Last week he was stopped by the cops (that drive big priced cars although their wages disallow it) that are always trying to catch you on something to pick their bribe. As they were searching his car for irregularities, a car crashed a motorcycle (and the motorcycle driver eventually died) and they didn't even move. They kept looking his car. No one around asked the cops for help.
So, if you consider the implications of this kind of society, blaming the West for what happens there is OTT, imho.
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steven1976
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"Corruption, corruption and more corruption."
Is that not what makes the world tick?
The police are the same here. I've had some fun over the years getting stopped by the BIB. At the end of the day, they are just trying to make a bit of money on the side.
China will compete I think, as they have the work force and now they have the technology.
I love china as its the one place in asia that you really feel like you are in Asia. No one speaks, English, everyone spits at you, everyone shouts when they talk so you feel intimated, hotels are shite, the food is shite (except Mc Ds), customer service is non existant, but it has something great about it.
Is that not what makes the world tick?
The police are the same here. I've had some fun over the years getting stopped by the BIB. At the end of the day, they are just trying to make a bit of money on the side.
China will compete I think, as they have the work force and now they have the technology.
I love china as its the one place in asia that you really feel like you are in Asia. No one speaks, English, everyone spits at you, everyone shouts when they talk so you feel intimated, hotels are shite, the food is shite (except Mc Ds), customer service is non existant, but it has something great about it.
I saw an interesting interview the other day on Bloomberg with a director of a multinational (whose name I forget) who said that one thing everyone seems to be drastically overlooking is the effect that automation and technology is having (and will have progressively in the future) on jobs worldwide, particularly in economies like China and India.
Even now, apparantly huge swathes of people who work in manufacturing in these countries are being replaced by machines that can do their jobs even cheaper than they can, and as technology becomes more and more efficient this is only going to continue. One of the suppliers he works with in India has cut its workforce from having tens of thousands to just a few hundred, yet output is up because of the technology they're using!
If large amounts of people in these countries are to be laid off and the wealth can't trickle down then economies like that of China aren't going to grow into the kind of thing many people might be expecting.
Incidentally, youth unemployment around the world is an enormous issue, not just like we see in continental europe. Compared to a lot of european countries the UK is seen as a jobs paradise, and I'm not just talking about Romania etc. Previously bouyant jobs markets in well established countries have collapsed and it's not just due to the global financial crash - the exponential rise in technology is leaving more and more people jobless in many different sectors as machines and systems can do more for less, and those companies that don't adopt them get left behind. Just wait till they can build the technology to replace people in the service sector with holograms etc and we'll see the same problems here too! Add to that the enormous exponential rise in world population, particularly in poorer parts of the world where people are more likely to live in slums and rely on menial jobs that will become more and more obsolete, what kind of a world are we going to be looking at in 30 years time?
Even now, apparantly huge swathes of people who work in manufacturing in these countries are being replaced by machines that can do their jobs even cheaper than they can, and as technology becomes more and more efficient this is only going to continue. One of the suppliers he works with in India has cut its workforce from having tens of thousands to just a few hundred, yet output is up because of the technology they're using!
If large amounts of people in these countries are to be laid off and the wealth can't trickle down then economies like that of China aren't going to grow into the kind of thing many people might be expecting.
Incidentally, youth unemployment around the world is an enormous issue, not just like we see in continental europe. Compared to a lot of european countries the UK is seen as a jobs paradise, and I'm not just talking about Romania etc. Previously bouyant jobs markets in well established countries have collapsed and it's not just due to the global financial crash - the exponential rise in technology is leaving more and more people jobless in many different sectors as machines and systems can do more for less, and those companies that don't adopt them get left behind. Just wait till they can build the technology to replace people in the service sector with holograms etc and we'll see the same problems here too! Add to that the enormous exponential rise in world population, particularly in poorer parts of the world where people are more likely to live in slums and rely on menial jobs that will become more and more obsolete, what kind of a world are we going to be looking at in 30 years time?
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andyfuller
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From last night:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... rt_Peston/DURATION: 1 HOUR
Robert Peston travels to China to investigate how this mighty economic giant could actually be in serious trouble. China is now the second largest economy in the world and for the last 30 years China's economy has been growing at an astonishing rate. While Britain has been in the grip of the worst recession in a generation, China's economic miracle has wowed the world.
Now, for BBC Two's award-winning strand This World, Peston reveals what has actually happened inside China since the economic collapse in the west in 2008. It is a story of spending and investment on a scale never seen before in human history - 30 new airports, 26,000 miles of motorways and a new skyscraper every five days have been built in China in the last five years. But, in a situation eerily reminiscent of what has happened in the west, the vast majority of it has been built on credit. This has now left the Chinese economy with huge debts and questions over whether much of the money can ever be paid back.
Interviewing key players including the former American treasury secretary Henry Paulson, Lord Adair Turner, former chairman of the FSA, and Charlene Chu, a leading Chinese banking analyst, Robert Peston reveals how China's extraordinary spending has left the country with levels of debt that many believe can only end in an economic crash with untold consequences for us all