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Trading is often about how to take the appropriate risk without exposing yourself to very human flaws.
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JKawai
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:52 pm

[EDIT: This is all about horse race trading]

I have been trading for about a year and a half now. I started with pre-race, digressed into in-running strategies, came up with a new strategy pretty much every day and ran them alongside each other gathering data, binned most of them off. One of them returned me 10,000% in a week over 160 races, then just stopped working for no reason. Resigned to all this, I returned to pre race.

After a while I found I had 'cracked' pre race - I knew exactly how to select races and this was key for me. In 2 weeks I made back 50% of my lifetime losses.

Then it just went to **** again. The strategy remained profitable, but my psychology was not. I lost the whole lot, plus more. Tilt was now my problem. Feeling betrayed at a loss, taking it in play, etc.

I thought that losing my *entire* bank in one race would be devastating enough that I would stop doing this, so I was kinda glad it happened. It wasn't. I went on to lose another £500, and then another £250, and then almost another £500 in another except came out break even. This is in the space of a few weeks.

I came up with a solution; involve a friend. Pay him 5% to look at my PLs at the end of each week and if any race incurred a loss of 10% or more, I have to ban myself off Betfair for 6 months, otherwise he's allowed to send - let's just say, 'dodgy' - emails to my parents. Seriously. I needed that threat.

Still didn't work, because if any trade went wrong, and I sank beyond 10%, I just thought, sod it, double transgression - I'm gonna be banned now anyway, so why don't I throw my whole bank at this? (Which nearly incurred the most recent £500 loss).

I traded again today. I came out in profit, but it was a day full of yet more tilt. More rulebreaking. I have set rules, and THEY ARE PROFITABLE if I stick to them. I don't trade Irish races, I don't trade Chelmsford or Wolves, I don't get involved in prices higher than 3.0 (my personal preference), I don't get involved unless there is very clear ONE-SIDED fill rate and clear opposition, and if it goes against me then the rule is to get out immediately because it's an ambiguous market. These rules work for me. But I don't follow them. I sink into this weird frame of mind out of my control where I know what I'm doing is wrong, but I'm doing it anyway. And this happens about 75% of the time.

My question here is, a) what the **** is wrong with me - I'm supposed to be an intelligent, sensible person; and b) has anybody else been in this situation and overcome it? My current thoughts are to live stream my trades to friends and pay them 30% JUST FOR WATCHING, so I'm less likely to make embarrassing losses, but that's logistically awkward, plus I want that 30%.

Any advice much appreciated - at the end of my tether now and very close to banning myself. Every day I think to myself "I don't have the personality type for this" but then the next day I go and trade, tilt, rinse, repeat.
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to75ne
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Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:37 pm

you probably know what is wrong. you cant accept a loss.

the markets change over time, what worked well last month, may not this month (or week). this month you might have to accept more loses but you dont seem able to do that.

there is nothing wrong with you just the way you think is not best suited to accepting loses, and if you cant do that then knock it on the head has trading is not for you. its all about taking loses not making profits. its a mind game and it would seem that your brain does not have the best wiring for it.
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Dallas
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Their is some excellent posts written by Jollygreen on this and the mindset required etc which are well worth a read viewtopic.php?f=17&t=8320
marko236
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Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:54 am

I would start by reducing your stakes and if something looks like it's working gradually increase stakes no point losing loads of money.
RentonT
Posts: 201
Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 12:26 am

I know exactly what you are going through and how you are thinking.

There is definitely a thing about being addicted to losing without maybe realising it. My Dad was a casino manager and he explained this in detail to me and it deffo makes sense.

The only way you will win at this is through DISCIPLINE, that is it. It is so simple.

At the moment you are not disciplined. You know this already but whether you can change is what matters. If you can be disciplined then you know the profits are there, if you are semi disciplined then you may end up winging it a bit for a certain amount of time but ultimately you will lose and you know this.

So there is your answer. It's just like anything in life really. If you want to lose weight you have to be disciplined. There are lots of examples and a lot of us want to cheat the system and cut corners but TRUST ME you will soon get sick of losing money and will have to accept you can't cut corners.

I suppose what you need are some tips in to how to be disciplined...

I can offer a little bit of advice such as:

Believe in GETTING RICH SLOW
Treat every minute of every trading session as a "huge deal" really focusing on not losing money.
Reduce time of each trading session. There is so long you can do it for to start with.

And I think you need a bit of luck in having a string of successful days long enough to actually make you see the TRUTH and believe in doing things the right way without flipping up just before the penny was about to drop.

But I never took no for an answer because I always knew it was possible and I refused to accept that I couldn't do it. Definitely believe in learning from your mistakes and those that fail/quit didn't realise how close they were to achieving.

Great tip by the way to reduce stakes so that you don't risk losing as much... however that didn't suit me because I would be more likely to break my rules with low stakes due to not respecting the money. I needed the big stakes to satisfy me. I had to focus on discipline in sticking to my rules. And the best things that worked for me was to really big up a trading session (treat it like a cup final where I had to perform to my best ability and I would come out with the right result). And also monitor my mental game and emotions whilst trading and stop trading when the time was right before my performance suffered and rule breaking would be common.

Good Luck
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Geordie
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Location: North East

JKawai, I very recently bought "Trading In The Zone" by Mark Douglas (I got the CD version to play in the car as I'm driving around).

I'm only part way through it, but I'm finding it very helpful (all about having the right mindset).

Give it a go (about £20 on Amazon).
iambic_pentameter
Posts: 443
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 1:24 pm

To echo what Geordie says above, Trading In The Zone is well worth a read.

Prehaps rather than jumping from strategy to strategy, focus on one discipline at a a time i.e. if you can be profitable from pre-race for 3 - 6 months, then look at at in-running.

I've still got a 'day job' so it's not critical that I make money - are you in a similar situation?

Finally, perhaps try working with a smaller bank, say, £100 and being ruthless with yourself i.e. no more than 10% on one trade with a strict 10% loss i.e. £10 stake and £1 loss.

Personally, I think that given you've had some successes, once you've cracked the mindset and discpline side of things you will be fine.
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LeTiss
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Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:04 pm

Failure to accept a loss is the single biggest reason for failure in trading

It's so easy to stick to a gameplan when you can see £10 green across the board

It's not so easy when you can see £20 red - especially for those of us who have turned to trading from gambling. It's in our nature to expect a run for our money, to accept a loss before the race has started is mentally tough

You literally need to re-wire the brain, it took me a while to do so, coupled with some eye watering losses
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Dallas
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I was just about to post that great phrase of your's Letiss which has always stuck in my head

'the difference between a successful trader and a bankrupt one, is what they do when faced with a red screen'
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LeTiss
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I have said it so many times here, Dallas - I vowed to never say it again, as I suspect people were fed up hearing it

However, I've been on this forum for a number of years, and I've lost count at the number of newbies who post messages of despair here with the same issues

If you are new to this game, pat yourself on the shoulder when you get a green screen, but pat youself even harder when you have traded out for a loss without letting it go 'In Play'.

This is because you have made the first step to becoming a trader - it might not be a profit, but you have successfully trained the mind to accept a loss.....you are on the right track!
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gutuami
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Every loss triggers a negative emotion. being aware of this and catching that moment at its very beginning, observing it is the key. Nobody can feel that tickling inside you. That is when your primitive brain so called amygdalae is trying to get in control of your logic and rationale brain. If you cant endure that pain help your logical brain with a simple 15-20min brake or just call it a day. Think long term. an impulsive behavior is not good for trading. Study the subject of loss aversion.
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laurencestanley
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:42 pm
Location: Manchester, UK

Geordie wrote:JKawai, I very recently bought "Trading In The Zone" by Mark Douglas (I got the CD version to play in the car as I'm driving around).

I'm only part way through it, but I'm finding it very helpful (all about having the right mindset).

Give it a go (about £20 on Amazon).
Definitely recommend this. Read it all, then read bits of it before every trading session until you've got over the problem.

Also Renton mentioned "Getting Rich Slow". This attitude has made a huge difference to me and took a long time to really understand. Goal setting can be a psychological minefield but I see a lot of people who lower their goals to something like £5 a race (for example). It tends to boost their confidence massively when they can actually achieve this and they can gradually build up from there.

Key word being "gradually".

I've tried to get rich quick before and we can all guess how it ended...
JKawai
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:52 pm

Thanks all for the tips.

Yes stake adjustment makes no difference to me - lower stakes makes me more ruthless. I know the strategy works, and i have settled on pre-race, it's the rulebreaking that I need to overcome. Today for example I've already been involved in two trades where I felt uncomfortable from the outset - and I've always had the rule 'if in doubt, stay out'. So it's useful advice here about treating every trade like a big deal (another rule I have, incidentally, is 'TASK OF ONE CERTAIN TRADE' - meaning, if someone gave me the task of doing ONE certain trade per day, would this be it?) Again, I keep ignoring this rule.

So my problem is acting compulsively. I think crucially it's 'trading out of boredom'. I think that's what it boils down to. I see a trade and I see big fill rate on one side and I think 'oh I'll just jump in and grab this' and BAM, a lay goes in and I'm immediately red, and I say to myself, "I wasn't comfortable, I had opposition, why did I do that?" Rinse, repeat. Like some guys here have said, reducing the amount of time trading seems like a good idea, but it requires the patience of a saint!

I'll take a look at that book. Thanks all.
JKawai
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:52 pm

iambic_pentameter wrote:To echo what Geordie says above, Trading In The Zone is well worth a read.

Prehaps rather than jumping from strategy to strategy, focus on one discipline at a a time i.e. if you can be profitable from pre-race for 3 - 6 months, then look at at in-running.

I've still got a 'day job' so it's not critical that I make money - are you in a similar situation?
I'm freelance so I've been able to devote considerably more time to this than most, and I just want more disposable income basically. I mean I'm really desperate for it, I've had my heart set on it for a few years now.
iambic_pentameter wrote:Finally, perhaps try working with a smaller bank, say, £100 and being ruthless with yourself i.e. no more than 10% on one trade with a strict 10% loss i.e. £10 stake and £1 loss.
Yes I always use a set percentage of bank and 0.1pt is max loss.
iambic_pentameter wrote:Personally, I think that given you've had some successes, once you've cracked the mindset and discpline side of things you will be fine.
i'm a hair's width away - this is why i don't want to give it up - i just need to overcome the trading out of boredom!
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Dallas
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Learning to sit on my hands was one of the biggest turning points for me, very easy to want to trade everything through fear of missing out but doing so effectively is another matter, I am 99% a swing trader and look for certain races at the start of each day, these are then added to guardian and I forget the rest, sometimes especially in winter I often only end up with only 4-6 races I’m prepared to even look at for the day and even these don’t always present me with an entry point so may end up only actively trading 2-3 markets some days.

The point being when I do trade a race I will usually do quite well from it or have very limited losses.

I would much rather have 3-4 races with a good result than of traded 80% of the day’s races been all over the place. If nothing else as others have said it builds your confidence which is a big positive.

Last week saw a big backer in the market and that threw up big swings/trends on a lot of the markets most of which I had already shortlisted so these are fill your boots days.

If you have a strategy that works or suits certain markets focus on those and ignore all others and you should see a marked improvement.
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