Trading Anger Management

Trading is often about how to take the appropriate risk without exposing yourself to very human flaws.
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petardo
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:41 pm

I`m very angry.I counted very wrong exit possition for few times today. Was little worry to close just before match ,but anyway my stupid mistakes. I cut my earnings today at least 1.5K lower :cry: I have to fully trust myself and not the market.One match to do. Santander vs Sevila
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

Ouch!

My advice would be to list the excuses you tell yourself when you go in play.

Then destroy them - prove to yourself that going in-play as a strategy is a non-starter, which will hurt you emotionally and financially.

Convince yourself that going in-play is a form of self-harm and therefore unacceptable. Don't give yourself any wiggle room along the lines of 'Well, in some circumstances, you can make a case for it'.

BTW, on a more positive note, I remember you writing on the forum that you make 1K a week. So something to remember when you're having a bad day is that you have a rare skill which makes your situation better than that of at least 90% of the population. :)

Jeff
rhysmr2 wrote:I got off to a terrible start today, I was down about £180 from the first race!! but to be honest that's nothing since later on I went in play and blew about £900 and ended the day on -£1050


I really wish I was joking.
Yantraman
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:30 pm

Sh***********te Rhys, thats a big hit. The ability to accept losses does not come naturally to all of us (including me). It plays a large part in determining just how far an individual can go in the world of trading.

I suspect the big traders that you read about can move easily on or even become more focused after a loss giving them that edge.

Have you ever considered NLP? Trading is all about psychology.

An NLP practitioner may well be able to help you by changing your perspective/reaction when you get a loss. This could then lead to stopping you from "trading angrily". (maybe help you to enjoy the trading more)

City traders have been known to use NLP to help them trade more effectively (control the desire to chase losses/fear of losing).

I have considered it in the past i know it can be very powerful tool if you know how to use it. The brain can be very effectively re-programmed (see Derren Brown!)

You clearly are a good trader (although it may not feel like it now) and not far away from really being one of the top dogs.

Get this issue sorted and you will make it.
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

Just to add to what Yantraman said, you might want to get one of Paul McKenna's books.

Even if you're sceptical about hypnosis or NLP, his books are interesting and inspiring, and his recordings (included on a CD with his books) are relaxing.

Jeff
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oddstrader
Posts: 344
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:55 pm
Location: Surrey

trading in the zone has some good content for traders, link attached ,
http://www.mediafire.com/?znnl0bmxzdx
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

Hi Oddstrader

It's a great book.

IMHO, these two quotes more or less sum up its key messages:

"As long as you are susceptible to the lands of errors that are the result of rationalizing, justifying, hesitating, hoping, and jumping the gun, you will not be able to trust yourself. If you can't trust yourself to be objective and to always act in your own best interests, achieving consistent results will be next to impossible. Trying to do something that looks so simple may well be the most exasperating thing you will ever attempt to do. The irony is that, when you have the appropriate attitude, when you have acquired a "trader’s mind-set" and can remain confident in the face of constant uncertainty, trading will be as easy and simple as you probably thought it was when you first started out."

And:

"For those who have learned how to be consistent, or have broken through what I call the "threshold of consistency,"the money is not only within their grasp; they can virtually take it at will. I'm sure that some will find this statement shocking or difficult to believe, but it is true. There are some limitations, but for the most part, money flows into the accounts of these traders with such ease and effortlessness that it literally boggles most people's minds."

Jeff
oddstrader wrote:trading in the zone has some good content for traders, link attached ,
http://www.mediafire.com/?znnl0bmxzdx
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rhysmr2
Posts: 427
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:24 pm
Location: North East of England

Cheers for the great advice again guys,

I agree it's psychological, It's like I've gone back to when I first started trading, rookie mistakes but on a large scale.

The most annoying thing is I know what I'm doing wrong but I keep doing it! It starts when I use large stakes or double/triple up on my position, I can easily find myself with a massive stake over 1k at sometimes high odds 5/6 and when it goes against me my exit makes things worse, especially in a weak market!

So that leaves me with a large loss, anywhere between £100 and £300 and that's when the "anger trading" kicks in! I start using huge stakes and going in play to try and get back to even (stupid mentality I know). I don't know why I do this now when I never used to?

I wish I could say I still make 1k plus a week but I don't, not for months, I wouldn't even want to check what my weekly average has been for the last 3 months because I think it would mentally finish me off :)

My confidence and profits are at an all time low, My girlfriend is worried we can't pay the mortgage, I'm having to sell my car. Tough times!

Sorry for the miserable post!

I will try NLP (whatever that is) and anything else that's suggested (and I do appreciate the suggestions!) because I have to make this work again and I will. I am a skeptic but I'm open minded and I can see how hypnosis could help.

Oddstrader, thanks for the link, I actually have had that book for over a year and still not read it! I think it's about time I did, cheers.

It all changes here.
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oddstrader
Posts: 344
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Location: Surrey

if its any consolation the last 3 months have been pretty poor for most pro traders, sometimes you just cant cook unless you have all the ingredients and this winter the main ingredient missing has been genuine liquidity, very skitty markets and very reactive to larger stakes so maybe just take a pull for a few weeks and get your confidence back , adopt the any green will do mentality and grow back gently to larger once the cheltenhams and ascots arrive.
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

rhysmr2 wrote: I agree it's psychological, It's like I've gone back to when I first started trading, rookie mistakes but on a large scale.
Have you thought of trading with smaller stakes whilst you build your confidence back up, and gradually increase your stake as your bank increases?

That way, you might feel like you're playing with money you've won, rather than with your existing resources. Also, if you see certain techniques work time after time, and give you a consistent profit, then you might feel more confident about using them with larger stakes.
rhysmr2 wrote:The most annoying thing is I know what I'm doing wrong but I keep doing it!
I wouldn't beat yourself up about it. I've been there myself - I'd be surprised if there were many traders that haven't.

IMHO, one of the hardest things in trading is to simply respond to the patterns the market throws up, using tried and tested techniques, rather then forming opinions about the market (which, in my experience, generally reflect what you want to believe!). Or to put it more concisely, 'want what the market wants'! :)

I think there are two approaches you can use. You can address the emotions that contribute to your errors, such as stress, by using meditation, Kalms tablets, etc. And you can also work out where you're going wrong technically, and decide firmly that, come what may, you won't act in certain ways in particular situations.
rhysmr2 wrote:So that leaves me with a large loss, anywhere between £100 and £300 and that's when the "anger trading" kicks in! I start using huge stakes and going in play to try and get back to even (stupid mentality I know). I don't know why I do this now when I never used to?
You do it for the same reason that a dieter cheats because they've already broken their diet that day, ie you're frustrated and want some pleasure to numb the pain. :)

I'm sure there are some lines you'd never cross, whatever happened. I'm guessing you wouldn't murder someone, for example! :) So IMHO, what you need to do is to turn the 'should' into a 'must' - ie I MUST NOT go in play, try to get even with the market, etc'.
rhysmr2 wrote:I wish I could say I still make 1k plus a week but I don't, not for months,
My guess is that you still have the skills you used to have, and the market hasn't fundamentally changed.

But ironically, because you're putting pressure on yourself to get to that 1K a week, you may have lost your natural rhythm (like a talented striker who hasn't scored in 20 games, thinks there's something wrong with him, and starts miscuing). That's why using smaller stakes may help until you get your groove back.

BTW, one of the things NLP talks about is 'modeling', where you look at what a successful person does and simply copy it (rather than spend years learning what they know). So why not model your trading on the way you used to trade? :)

I hope this helps.

Jeff
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LeTiss
Posts: 5386
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:04 pm

Rhys

You know how to trade successfully, don't forget that

However, you may have gone stale, or possibly just momentarily lost your edge. Perhaps your desperation to pull in big figures is being driven by increased responsibilities in your private life?

It might be a case of going back to basics. Try to simply trade successfully, and not try to emulate people like Peter Webb. Either use smaller stakes for a while to boost your confidence, or maybe even freshen up your trading by trying something else like football for a while
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rhysmr2
Posts: 427
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:24 pm
Location: North East of England

oddstrader wrote:adopt the any green will do mentality and grow back gently to larger once the cheltenhams and ascots arrive.
Good idea!

Jeff, Thanks for that great reply, it all sounds spot on. Now the hard part is going to be putting this to practice!
LeTiss 4pm wrote:Perhaps your desperation to pull in big figures is being driven by increased responsibilities in your private life?
Very true, my trading went from great to bad the same week I purchased my first house (140k), coincidence?!

Although I've always been desperate to make big money, Everything I want costs a lot! :)

I will try my hardest to use small stakes till I get back in the swing of things, things have to change now. Thanks again.
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to75ne
Posts: 2413
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:37 pm

rhysmr2.

personally i really think you need a break.

i think that you are maybe a bit jaded and need a week or two away. if you had a "proper job",
no doubt you would take leave to go on holiday, nip of to the coast on bank holidays etc.

i suspect you trade most if not everyday. like any job, everyone needs to get away from it all for good chunk of time.

as you have just bought your house (congratulations), why not take some time of to decorate, buy curtains etc. take your mind away from pre horse trading. dont trade the sandbaggers in the evening instead look into some of the suggestions people have made, ie nlp, meditation etc, read the book.

thats my take on things, i really think you are suffering battle fatigue, and need a two week holiday, get away from work.
danum
Posts: 237
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:57 am

Sorry to hear of your current troubles Rhys, I can empathise with what you're going through. My trading was going along nicely with profits progressing slowly and consistently and then it all came crashing down in December. I had been planning an overseas trip for a while and paid on my credit card with the intention of drawing funds from BF to cover the cost. I had enough to pay for the trip with some leftover but stupidly I decided to try and make enough in the month leading up to Christmas to leave me with the same bank I had at that time. Overnight my attitude to risk increased, I followed my strategy when it worked but refused to when things went against me and did stupid things to try and make it back. I managed to lose my entire bank inside 3 weeks, thousands!

I decided to stop trading completely until after my holiday, I am just getting back into things now but with small stakes and no expectations at all; just my strategy which I follow no matter what.

This has taught me that I couldn't handle the expectation I had placed on myself, instead of trying to be emotionless in my trades I was mentally trading with my holiday fund. Maybe a way forward for you is to ringfence what you need to cover your fixed costs and only trade with what's left over, that way you can detach any fear you have of losing because it doesn't represent the gas bill, the mortgage, food for the week etc

You can do it, you just need to take control of the situation and find a new strategy to manage yourself.

All the best.
Dan
Yantraman
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:30 pm

Sorry forgot to explain NLP- "Neuro Linguistic Programming"

I once saw an episode of Derren Brown where he was able to change the colour perspective of a complete stranger.

She saw yellow as red and red as yellow. She couldnt even identify her own red car in the car park! From what I understand he used NLP to do this.

By the way I've just had the crapest month for ages, Jan/Feb was tough last year as well, I seem more relaxed about it though - maybe because I am just resigned to it being like this at this time of year.
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

Something to remember about Brown is that alot of what he does is, by his own admission, simple magic of the Paul Daniels variety.

When he pretends to read someone's mind, for example, he can't tell the word they're thinking just be looking at the direction in which their eyes are moving. Instead, he does what people do who claim to communicate with the dead, and lets the other person lead him, eg 'A name is coming to me. I think it begins with J. Do you know a John? A Jane? Oh, your aunt was called Jane, you say?'.

But that's not to dismiss NLP (although I do think some of its ideas are frankly batty!). Lots of NLP makes sense (although it's just common sense repackaged IMHO). Probably the most famous NLP practitioner is a guy called Tony Robbins. If you Google him, you'll find loads of his recordings online (and you might also like this one: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=3024).

Jeff
Yantraman wrote:Sorry forgot to explain NLP- "Neuro Linguistic Programming"

I once saw an episode of Derren Brown where he was able to change the colour perspective of a complete stranger.

She saw yellow as red and red as yellow. She couldnt even identify her own red car in the car park! From what I understand he used NLP to do this.
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