Attitude

Trading is often about how to take the appropriate risk without exposing yourself to very human flaws.
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JollyGreen
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Euler wrote:I've been studying unsuccessful traders in recent months to try and understand why they struggle. One of the things I have picked up on is there over reliance on the negative.

When I enter a market I am looking for opportunities. If I execute on one and it fails I dump it and move onto the next one. Decent trades present themselves all the time.

When I've looked at people struggling they often scratch trades that would be profitable, i.e. they feel lucky to have avoided a loss and let losses run too much. As a consequence they never really get the upside needed to turn profitable.

Just an observation for you..
I know we don't like using quotes on this forum but forgive me on this occasion.

Holding onto a negative is strange because if you look at how we develop it is a complete turnaround. I know that may seem strange but think about it a bit more when you read my thoughts on the matter.

We are conditioned to get what we want...but...we tend to change that conditioning at some point in our life. I think social circumstances will have a bearing on that switch over point. As a child can you remember asking for that ice cream, chocolate, etc? You would keep on and on until you hear the magic word "YES". You would find yourself in other situations where you wanted something and you knew which buttons to press to ensure you get the person who makes the decision to make it a positive one. I know we didn't always get what we wanted but it wasn't for the lack of trying!

Then suddenly that ability goes away and a lot of us forget it. Who remembers going out for a night and seeing a pretty girl ( a good looking guy for the ladies on here) across the room. Now honestly how many of you would say "I can't ask them, what if they say no?" I was never like that, I would go and ask because the worst that could happen would be a no. I must add that I was not always successful but the law of averages dictated I had to be successful at some point.

This change tends to see most people go into a defensive mode. This is not a criticism of anyone, this is a natural behaviour but more importantly it is a learned behaviour. Even more important is the fact we can change this behaviour and go back to our childhood methods if we really want to. Some people see this as regression because their social surroundings suggest it is negative. My view is simple, ignore the others, think positive and give it a go. If you get it wrong, think about why and then try again.

Sadly too many people wait for the perfect opportunity. Thinking back to the night out, it would be like the gorgeous girl or guy coming over and making a move on you. That sounds wonderful but let's face it, we aren't that lucky are we?? So we need to make our own luck and give it a go with a child like "devil may care" attitude. I don't mean jump in and waste money I simply mean think positive and give it a go.

My dear old Mum used to say to me "Don't trouble trouble until trouble troubles you!" I wasn't sure what she meant when I was younger but it applies to almost every situation in life, especially trading.
PeterLe
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superfrank wrote:There's probably a lot in that convoysur.

Many people who are successful in the corporate world are schmoozing yes men who climb the greasy pole using a combination of hard work (doing what they're told) and sycophancy. Whether many of these types could ever cut it in a world where sucking up to the boss is not an option is an interesting question.
Hi SF
Slightly different perspective

Trading isn't my main income...it would be if I could get redundancy. Although I have tried to maneouver myself in to such a position for years I keep getting over looked..

What i have found is that I dont work anywhere near as hard at my day job and there has been no drop in my performance (I work in sales so fairly easy to compare year by year)..I often wonder if i had adopted this "work a little less hard" attitude over the less 20 years or so, would it have made any difference to where I am now? These days I probably only really put in half a week rather than a full week..yet last year I was promoted because of my performance (if only they knew!)

The situation I was in say 10 years ago was that I "had" to active my sales quota so I could pay my bills... Yet these days I would rather walk away from a bad deal and lose the small commission and wait for the "big ones" as I dont "need" the commission any more..so in some ways the money I have made on Betfair has in fact made me better at my job!

The above is not too dissimilar to trading..when you think about it?
I often lose on my trades, but I know that I will have a positive P&L at the end of the month, so i dont care about the odd losing trade

Regards
Peter

Edit: That's why I have said in the past about not losing stop losses...all they do in my opinion is bring your average down
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

An interesting quiz to reveal psychological biases: http://www.vanityfair.com/business/feat ... uiz-201112

Jeff
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superfrank
Posts: 2762
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:28 pm

@PeterLe

Trading calmly is very important to good decision making and if you are relaxed about the money then that must help.

I can't remember who it was, but a trader on here said that he couldn't trade properly under (financial) pressure and was going off to work on the oil rigs.

I try not to give myself financial targets other that covering my (London!) rent ASAP each month. Even that simple target doesn't doesn't help as my profitability tends to be poorer at the start of the month and gets better as I go along.
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JollyGreen
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@superfrank.

Some good points and that is why I feel we need to go back to our child like ways of getting to yes. I don't mean having tantrums - I am sure you know what I mean. I know it is hard but it is possible.

It was Rhyswho was going to work on the oil rigs, I haven't seen any posts from him of late so I hope he's okay.

Cheers

JG
Groovyelms
Posts: 277
Joined: Fri May 20, 2011 7:42 am

gr8 thread, in my own trading it is 2 steps forward and 1.99 steps back, by I am making progress and know a hell of a lot more about the mental proccess going on in my head now... But I am still not sure what sort of a trader I am.. so starting this week its back to basics and more serious analysis of results to find what currently works best... a mistake I have made is to try and be good in all situations, I think this is possible but only with an awfull lot of experience.
Another point of reference I am using is to look back on past learning curves in say sport for example and using that experience to help find a direction.. e.g. I learnt to ski in my early thirties and fell head over heels in love with the mountains, i thought about skiing 50 weeks of the year and skiied for two.. it drove me crackers, i wanted to make every turn perfect and ski with the panache of "jean claude le hotshot", eventually I became so frustrated and down after attempting to become a basic level instructer at the local ski slope. that I stopped, hung up the boots and never touched them for nearly a year, one autumn I saw a course being run and thought maybe I'll try this skiing lark again, Inspired and rejuvenated the mountains beckened, I forgot all about the perfect turns, took a few lessons and took a little here a little there untill it all started to click... and the freedom came, that wild childlike freedom away from the crowds just you a small group, a mountain guide and mother earth's best snow to play in...words can never do justice to those surroundings and sheer beauty all around you...
I hope that maybe approaching trading in that mindsett may help.. but I know it is a long road to that seemingly effortless proccess.. But I do have a trip in january to look forward too..
happy trading groovy
Iron
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Groovy - Try meditation or hypnosis! :)

They are great for getting you in a relaxed, focused state, where you have a clear mind and don't get anxious every time the market moves against you.

Jeff
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CaerMyrddin
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Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:47 am

Very interesting thread :)

Personally, I can't really tell if stress or calm are better. Sometimes some pressure and having goals can do the trick to keep me forward, sometimes it has the opposite effect. If I calm sometimes I can concentrate better on finding opportunities, but others I think it gets me somewhat lazy and risk adverse. To be honest, a mixture of both may be better, as it will push you forward whyle keeping your nerve, will that be being in the zone?

@Jeff, last month I started learning meditation, as my wife wanted to and I knew some guys were doing it. When I read about some of the cientifically proven effects I decided to give it a go. Are you into it too?
Iron
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Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

Hi Antonio

The short answer is 'Not nearly as much as I should be', although I plan to change that! :)

The challenge with meditation is that it's easy to procrastinate doing it! Meditation involves stilling the mind, and the mind doesn't want to be stilled - it wants to fly about all over the place! Meditators often compare the mind to a drunken monkey! So it's important to find time to force yourself to meditate, and ignore your mind when it tells you about other things you need to be doing, or tries to get you to think about the past or the future!

You might also find this thread interesting: http://betangel.com/forum/viewtopic.php ... definitely

If you're interested in reading about meditation, I'd recommend this book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0918 ... W46TCZPVN2

Jeff
CaerMyrddin wrote: @Jeff, last month I started learning meditation, as my wife wanted to and I knew some guys were doing it. When I read about some of the cientifically proven effects I decided to give it a go. Are you into it too?
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LeTiss
Posts: 5386
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:04 pm

The problem I have sometimes is boredom

I don't really trade horses, so I'm not pushing trades through with just 5-10 mins before the off. I'm invariably trading markets hours before they start, and this can lead to boredom. Boredom can be a destructive state of mind in trading because it makes oneself momentarily reckless, or you tend to lose concentration. Also, you can become a bit idle & start procrastinating. It probably explains why my post count is so high, I'm often just filling in time whilst I wait for my trade to get taken.
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CaerMyrddin
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I understand you Darren. I'll post more often when just trading football preoff!
rubysglory
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Good thread Euler and some interesting points. IMO I think fear of failure,touched on by Consty1, is a major cause of why unsuccessful Traders struggle. This fear, perhaps the defensive mode posed by JG, in turn creates a mental situation where the Trader is unable to both mentally and financially handle a loss. Any loss, no matter how small, invariably wipes out the Trader's bank and the fear of loss that is triggered is overwhelming - often resulting in a chase your money Martingale mentality. As someone from a horse racing Handicapping background, I feel that one of the biggest hurdles to mentally overcome with Trading is money management. When Handicapping, the money management aspect is relatively static, based on a bet to prices logic. Simplistically, if I rate a horse at 2.00 and the market is quoting 4.00, I bet 50 units. If I rate a horse at 4.00 and the market is 2.00, I either don't bet or perhaps look for a lay opportunity. With Trading, for some the 'knowing how much to open your bets with' is not quite so simple. Do I trade the same bank across a 4.50 - 5.00 range and I would a 2.00 - 2.50 range, do I trade as a percentage of bank, do I trade a price swing percentage as against a tick movement ? These are some of the questions that I feel make Trading quite daunting.


rg
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

I once read a book on trading which highly recommended this exercise to get you in the right frame of mind for trading:

http://www.highlysensitivesouls.com/art ... gpages.htm

The authors went as far as to say that, if you can't spare the time to do this exercise, you should really consider whether trading is right for you at this time!

The idea is that it's a form of meditation - it helps to clear out all the worries from your mind, and frees you to focus on the task at hand without anxiety.

If you don't control your thoughts and emotions, they will control you...

Jeff
Groovyelms
Posts: 277
Joined: Fri May 20, 2011 7:42 am

Ferru123 wrote:Groovy - Try meditation or hypnosis! :)

They are great for getting you in a relaxed, focused state, where you have a clear mind and don't get anxious every time the market moves against you.

Jeff
thanks for those sugestions, I am drawn to the idea of meditation and it will be fun doing some research... :idea:
groovy
Zenyatta
Posts: 1143
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:17 pm

Yes, good points. Really, if you're not confident in your bets, you shouldn't place them. If you are confident, you really need to let the trades go to completion. Make your bed and lay in it. Agree.

A shame I haven't been able to do that. It's amazing that it's nearly always my initial instincts are shown to be the correct ones, and then I keep changing things and doing retarded things... and blowing my chances all the time...I need to tie my hands to stop them creeping to the keyboard, or set it and forget it on the spreadsheet and resist the endless temptation to look at it and jump in doing something retarded again.

I'm sure all gamblers would agree that it was when they didn't stick their initial betting plans that disaster always struck, and they rued the times they deviated from their initial bets.

I think people can get into a state of 'learned helplessness' after losing all the time, they just start expecting to lose, and the fear becomes self-defeating.

Also, when you only have a small bank and don't have the money to play around with, I think things are much tougher. Of course, when you are most desperate not to lose, is the very time you are most likely to do so. The people losing are the ones that can least afford it. :x
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