Bookie Exchange

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ShaunWhite
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8 mins to be shot dwon in flames sb.... I thought it would happen quicker than that.
spreadbetting
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I was asking about the trading profit though, Shaun not the ones you can't avoid. You'll be moaning about your taxes going to immigrants next whilst paying less in tax than your pizza delivery driver probably does.
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ShaunWhite
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spreadbetting wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:28 pm
You'll be moaning about your taxes going to immigrants next whilst paying less in tax than your pizza delivery driver probably does.
The driver will be on a zero hours contract, unlikely to earn enough to pay tax.
Where people are from and what make & model they are doesn't matter to me one jot. Don't lump me in with the "there's not enough to go round because of all the foreigners" gang.

Anyway, mustn't hi-jack this guys thread. I'm sure it will all be marvellous, just like unregulated, uncontrollable social media has been.

...and I'm not going to fall out with you sb because you're too bloody useful :)
spreadbetting
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Fair enough, Shaun, fwiw the thought of an unregulated exchange certainly wouldn't be somewhere I'd be queuing up to fund especially as you're more likely to win and lose more by the swings in bitcoin than your prowess in the markets. I just find a lot of the forum's criticism of other's contribution to society to be a bit hypocritical when, solely ,as traders we contribute little if anything ourselves.
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ShaunWhite
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spreadbetting wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:56 pm
I just find .......
Money, politics, religion. Can't avoid the first in here but the 2nd & 3rd never end well. Vive la difference. ;)
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Kafkaesque
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ShaunWhite wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:42 pm
Anyway, mustn't hi-jack this guys thread. I'm sure it will all be marvellous, just like unregulated, uncontrollable social media has been.
Perhaps we shouldn't, but if I weren't exactly tickled pink about the project already then now....

My point being that they jump in here voluntering for questions. Okay, so your post wasn't so much a question as a comment on the project, but it truly warrants a reply all the same. I happen to agree very, very wholeheartedly with your points in the post. However, not matter whether (other) people happens to agree, I think, it's a legitimate concern where they surely have an opinion, stance, approach or what have you. I would get it, say, a week from now, but on the same day as their first post, to leave a highly relevant concern without reply for 6+ hours doesn't strike me as a terribly serious approach.

So for my money it can pretty much only go awry/get hi-jacked when they open the floor and then disappear.
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ShaunWhite
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I certainly felt the 2 questions where pertinent. "Who's looking after my money" seems to be a fundamental question that shouldn't take a lot of thinking time.

But as you can see, the more I realised that the entire project was going to be operating in the Wild West using Monopoly money, the less interested I became. Even the name carries every negative connotation possible.

I sense a rather desperate push to try and recover someone's investment.

Bitcoin, a mega exchange, living in a magic kingdom that no government will ever touch and where nobody will steal my money? ...... Has anyone seen Luca lately?
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ShaunWhite
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Euler wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:29 pm
I've been speaking to these guys for a while. Will be interesting to see how things play out.
What's your honest opinion?

How do you reconcile the need for legal protection for users with their intention to operate in an unregulated space? The circle doesn't square for me. The "for a while" hints that you know the answer.
PBSA
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hi Shaun, thanks for the Qs, they are certainly worth asking and deserve an answer.

>>Who's going to abritrate disputes or provide other legal protections?

If you mean disputes over whether a bet was placed or not, or at what time the bet was placed, or how it got matched, etc - every transaction on Bookie is publicly broadcast in real time. That's not a generous decision that anyone makes, that's simply the nature of blockchain. With this 100% real-time transparency of transaction history, there is a single (distributed) record of every bet, that no single party has privileged access to. Disputes of this nature are settled by reference to the public ledger. That has never been the case before in the history of online betting.

Legal protections: the Peerplays blockchain (as with most public blockchains right now) does not belong to a particular jurisdiction. With blockchain being so new a technology, there is a huge amount of uncertainty in how blockchain and existing legal systems interact. The issues underlying legal protections with Bookie/Peerplays are in principle the same as those underlying Bitcoin. This might provide some useful insight: https://bitcoin.org/en/faq#is-bitcoin-legal

>>And by decentralized, do you mean that...

By decentralized, we mean that no single person (or company) will have control over the way that the Bookie betting exchange operates.

The Bookie betting exchange will run on top of the Peerplays blockchain, a purpose-built gaming and gambling blockchain that uses the same underlying codebase ('Graphene') used by BitShares, a decentralized financial exchange that has handled 100s of millions of dollars of trading in the past 2 years or so.

Our organisation (PBSA) is a non-profit organization that writes the Bookie software (front-end and back-end). But we have nothing to do with the operation of the Bookie betting exchange - we won't be running servers, or holding end users' money, or settling bets, etc. We just release the code, which is then run on the Peerplays blockchain by its 'block-producers', the nodes that verify new entries on the distributed ledger (in Bitcoin they are known as 'miners'). On the Peerplays blockchain, block-producers are known as "Witnesses". But no single one of these Witnesses has exclusive control over how the blockchain (or products like Bookie that run on the blockchain) is run. That is what is meant by decentralized.

>>And by decentralized, do you mean that you won't be holding people's money to cover their liability?

As per above, "we" (PBSA) are not involved in the operation of any part of Bookie or the Peerplays blockchain, including holding user funds.

But, of course, users need to deposit funds with Bookie before they can bet, the same way as for any betting exchange. With bitcoin (BTC) deposits, funds are deposited to a BTC wallet that is managed by the Peerplays blockchain i.e. by a decentralized entity. So, again, this means that no single person or entity has control over those funds. PBSA believes this will offer the most transparent and secure way to hold users' BTC funds.
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ShaunWhite
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Thank you for the reply. I'll digest it when I have a little more time.
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ShaunWhite
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Before my feedback...Doesn't it take an hour to process a BTC transaction?
PBSA wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:13 pm

there is a huge amount of uncertainty in how blockchain and existing legal systems interact.
This is clearly a great concern and one which is highly significant. I've no doubt the paper trail will be outstanding, but without a legal system to assist with any irregularities, it's of little reassurrance. Your faith in the likelihood that a this huge uncertainty can be resolved, tested in law, and proved to be effective, within a realistic timeframe is either profound or you think most people won't think it's important.
PBSA wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:13 pm

Our organisation (PBSA) is a non-profit organization
I'm not quite sure why you felt it necessary to mention that. It, like 'standards association' have a very positive image admittedly, but it's just a very tax effective (ie zero tax) way to structure a startup the requires a lot of early stage reinvestment isn't it?

I don't expect you to answer questions about the negative effect of Bookie on tax and the levy, that's a question for the operators and users of Bookie rather than it's writers.
PBSA wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:13 pm

no single person or entity has control over those funds.
PBSA believes this will offer the most transparent and secure way to hold users' BTC funds.
Ultimately, your faith and fate lies in BItcoin, legislation, wide public acceptance, stability, industry acceptance, a vast user base, and more. It's a straightforward gamble and that acca within 5 years must be well over 3 figures. I'm going to wait and see.

You needn't reply I'm sure you're busy, you only came to see if anyone had questions about your shiney new software and ended up with much bigger questions about the consequences of companies like Google, Amazon, Starbuck and Bookie.
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ShaunWhite
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iambic_pentameter wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:39 pm
https://bookie.exchange/

Received an email from them yesterday to say that beta testing will begin in early 2018.

The site has a good FAQ section on it and worth a look.

Iambic
I thought I'd be fair and give it a proper look......I didn't mock this screen up.

Even thought I haven't signed up I still got a slight "Where's my money gone?" panicky feeling. :shock:

The Betfair page looked so safe and cosy after that one.
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obitus
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They have updated their site address: http://www.bookiebeta.com/
PBSA
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>>Before my feedback...Doesn't it take an hour to process a BTC transaction?

Yes, that's right, it's about an hour.
Once a user has deposited BTC on to Bookie, everything will happen on the Peerplays blockchain, so that one hour transaction time doesn't come into play again (until a user wants to withdraw BTC, in which case there will be a similar BTC transaction time). Bookie's internal accounting will keep track of user balances, exposure, etc and this is updated every 2 to 3 seconds (which is the rate at which new blocks are produced on the Peerplays blockchain).

>>it's just a very tax effective (ie zero tax) way to structure a startup
>>the requires a lot of early stage reinvestment isn't it?

Non-profit organizations are common in blockchain because they offer a reasonably appropriate organizational structure for the support and development of decentralized blockchains. For example, the Bitcoin Foundation [https://bitcoinfoundation.org/] and the Ethereum Foundation [https://www.ethereum.org/foundation], which are non-profits that drive development and standards for the two biggest blockchains in the world by marketcap.
PBSA
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hi obitus.
Thanks for putting up the link.
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