Betfair's activities in the market

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Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

I got talking on Twitter today re. Voler La Vedette (viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5276) with a guy who was once approached by Betfair to trade for them.

I thought I'd share what he told me (reproduced with permission):

'Betfair have trading desks yes. But the risk management and the way they trade makes it more likely the were backing the 28-1 too.

Of course it's possible that they were the CP*, but highly unlikely.

Most likely it was a stale price. Would explain why no matter how much it traded the size of it didn't reduce.

Betfair trade by finding value and backing and laying. Rarely take a bet to the end. Always lock in.

If you look hard enough it's fairly easy to spot value. Especially straight after an event (goal/horse falls/etc).

It's the same as regular betting. You wouldn't back something if the odds weren't decent. All about giving yourself an edge.

Like if the odds were X with 10mins to go and a goal is scored you know the odds should now be Y'ish.

Remember they/we don't take the bet to the end we want a quick mis-price, trade it, then get out when price corrects'.


I also asked him:

'Pre-off, if there's no news about a horse re. it sweating up, etc, how would you establish if there's value?'

He replied:

'You wouldn't. Stuff like that you don't trade. If there is no edge you leave it alone.'


I then asked:

How do you know what the true price should be if a goal is scored or a horse is sweating up though?

He replied:

'Don't think it's even possible with horses. And as for the theory for the football there is no way I'm telling how I do it. ; )

Ha! I don't blame you at all mate. No, the guys are traders not gamblers. No edge - No trade. Let Joe Bloggs make the market.'


Any thoughts? :)

Jeff
mister man
Posts: 363
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:10 pm

wow thats interesting, a guy with limited english or plain old (peed off his trolley) muddled...

yeah i bet on the value x or y, if its not stale man, but dont take it to the end just to the edge.

right on man, cool its how betfair do it..


insights abound..
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

It seems perfectly clear to me.

Let's say the true odds of a team winning are 3.0, but the current odds are 4.0. You back at 4.0, and then close the trade when the market realises it's messed up and the price drops...

Jeff
evertonian
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:34 am

Jeff,
You ask,

"How do you know what the true price should be if a goal is scored ... "

The answer to this has so many variables that there is not one answer in my humble opinion. I'll list the following situations and then you can discuss what you'd expect to happen :

1.Man Utd score first against Wigan at Old Trafford
2.Wigan score first against Man Utd at Old Trafford
3.Wigan score first against Man Utd at Wigan
4. Man U score first against Wigan at Wigan

Four different circumstances entirely which will affect how many goals are scored in a match in my opinion.

Situation 1 - Utd score first, which will open up Wigan's game due to them probably looking to keep the game 0-0 for as long as possible. What happens next ? There are countless possibilities.
Situation 2 - Wigan score first - the chances of a Wigan goal decrease ?? The chances of a Man U goal go up due to Wigan sitting back ??
Situation 3 - Wigan are at home. Do they continue playing the way they were set up ? Do they switch to defensive mode ? Do Man U change their way of playing ?
Situation 4 - Man U score first against Wigan at Wigan. Do they stop attacking ? Do they continue playing the way they have previously played ?

In my opinion, there are no real correct answers to these situations. The way I trade the football is to do my homework, do my analysis pre match. But I think the key thing is to know teams styles. What do they do if they go a goal up / a goal behind . Also watching the match will be a great help when you trade the football.

Soccer Mystic will give you average prices as to the Match Odds and the Goal Markets, and through this you can gain an average of what is likely to happen. But in my humble opinion, that's what these are... averages. Averages long term can be way above or way below what is happening.

I would appreciate thoughts on this from traders that trade the football full time if there are any out there. I would love it also if Mr Euler could get involved in this discussion, as in my opinion there is not enough discussed about this on the forum, and anything that can help generate profits for us all would be fantastic.
mister man
Posts: 363
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:10 pm

well said evertonian...
dont be surprised if you dont get an answer that you expect.

trading is gambling as you have excellently demonstrated.
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

Gamblers lose long-term.

Therefore, if you have a long-term edge (which many traders do), then you're not a gambler.

You're more like the casino that empties gamblers' pockets...

Jeff
mister man wrote: trading is gambling as you have excellently demonstrated.
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LeTiss
Posts: 5386
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:04 pm

It's easy enough for BF to determine what the real price should be, that's how bookmakers like Bet365 can have 30+ 'in play' events operating at any given time, this can realistically only be done with various algorithims. Any variances will be determined by liabilities.

What I think is totally wrong, is that BF are hoovering up money in markets before anybody else. That to me sounds like insider trading and shouldn't be allowed
mister man
Posts: 363
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:10 pm

im a gambler and i dont lose.....sorry (trader)...

oooh im a trader dont you know..

yes very posh

bit like a banker, casino type investing..

very fashionable...

just look at the economy ..dahlinks,splendid
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

Mister Man

Is that a sarcastic way of saying 'There's no such thing as a long-term edge'?

If so, how do you explain the fact that there are guys in this forum who place literally hundreds of trades a week, and come out with a profit, week in, week out?

They could be lucky, but the chances of that are pretty remote, and I don't think you'd bet against any of them making an overall profit on their next thousand trades...

Jeff

PS Are you drunk? :)
mister man
Posts: 363
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:10 pm

no not drunk been trading the scots footie..

i thought evertonian had some good points that werent answered..

plus if i back to lay or lay to back,im gambling on the outcome...
research yes, odds yes, probability yes, its still a gamble,just in a smaller time frame ( i.e less of a gamble but a gamble non the less)...

fancy it up all you like,its gambling...

ooohhh yes im a trader, very professional, its like investing..but of course investements can go down as well as up...

ricky tomlinson "trading my ****"
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

Mister Man

Let's say that you repeatedly bet at odds of 2.1 on the toss of an unbiased coin.

IMHO:

A. That's not gambling.

B. With sensible staking, there's naff all chance of you coming out behind over 1,000 such bets.

C. That's essentially what a trader who has an edge does (albeit with a much smaller edge).

Would you agree?

Jeff
mister man
Posts: 363
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:10 pm

i agree jeff, that would give you an edge

its clearly why only 1-2% of punters make a long term profit, because these traders dont advertise the markets where 2.1 on a coin toss is available, even those selling info...

it would seem we have at best 98% gamblers and 2% traders in that case, which in my book makes it overwhelmingly, gambling. looking at it realistically and int he round and for the majority,its gambling

im with evertonian...
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

Mister Man

One can only guess at the percentage of Betfair users with an edge, although I believe Betfair once said that just 2% of their punters make over 15K per year.

Jeff
mister man
Posts: 363
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:10 pm

ok jeff..
so 98% of traders are rubbish, heck HERES A THOUGHT they might as well be gambling at those success rates, which of course at 2% SUCCESS RATES THEY ARE..lol

happy trading (it feels a lot nicer calling it that doesnt it, than that nasty nasty word gambling)
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

All you need to do is find an edge and apply it with discipline!

How hard can that be? :)

Jeff
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