jeff,
im sure there are peolple who do not take months or years but it would seem that the anecdotal evidence is that is not the case with most.
Personally I believe its peoples own self/minds that are their biggest obstacle to success. Taking ticks its not too hard, cutting for small loses is not too hard; its control of the self that is by far the hardest part to get right (my opinion)
Newbies Trading in the Dark
Hi Tony
I don't dispute that, in practice, it can take months or years.
But if someone has the right mental attitude and is taught techniques at the outset that are proven to work consistently, with little or no discretion, then I can't see why there needs to be a lengthy apprenticeship.
Jeff
I don't dispute that, in practice, it can take months or years.
But if someone has the right mental attitude and is taught techniques at the outset that are proven to work consistently, with little or no discretion, then I can't see why there needs to be a lengthy apprenticeship.
Jeff
to75ne wrote:jeff,
im sure there are peolple who do not take months or years but it would seem that the anecdotal evidence is that is not the case with most.
Personally I believe its peoples own self/minds that are their biggest obstacle to success. Taking ticks its not too hard, cutting for small loses is not too hard; its control of the self that is by far the hardest part to get right (my opinion)
i would agree but i think most people stumble into trading so to speak. they dont plan to learn to trade they kind accidentally come across trading, do ok on a free grid with £2 stakes and get the bug.
in my case i was a layer, and realised that it was possible to get a liability lower then sp with out to much difficulty trading the price. during the jumps season i would lay max 5 horses a week. it took a lot of time with my head in the bible. i started running out of time to study form. the attraction of trading to me was low risk, no form studying at all. saved tons of time.
not that long ago there were no courses really (apart from mr webbs), that just taught the mechanics so to speak, so you learnt by trial and error, reading stuff on forums, blogs etc, slowly you get there.
in my case i was a layer, and realised that it was possible to get a liability lower then sp with out to much difficulty trading the price. during the jumps season i would lay max 5 horses a week. it took a lot of time with my head in the bible. i started running out of time to study form. the attraction of trading to me was low risk, no form studying at all. saved tons of time.
not that long ago there were no courses really (apart from mr webbs), that just taught the mechanics so to speak, so you learnt by trial and error, reading stuff on forums, blogs etc, slowly you get there.
When you say you offer up money what way is the ladder set,to75ne wrote: i always offer up money first, i don’t take a price first, if my money gets taken, starts to get taken or i think there is a high probability it will get taken, i then take the counter price (if I have not already got my counter trade in already as a offer). the only time i don’t do this is if i get spiked or i mess up, then i scratch or if it’s looking really bad i hit the “c” button.
hope the above makes sense jeff.
A financials system I bought a while back contained this quote:
'Trading is boring - Keep it that way!'
The system author was basically saying 'keep things simple, and just respond to what you see according to your plan, rather than analysing the market for hidden meaning'.
It's good advice IMHO.
Jeff
'Trading is boring - Keep it that way!'
The system author was basically saying 'keep things simple, and just respond to what you see according to your plan, rather than analysing the market for hidden meaning'.
It's good advice IMHO.
Jeff
Trouble with trading is that the devil is in the details. The principles may sound simple, but in practice you need exactly the right entry point, exactly the right offset,exactly the right exit point (stop loss) AND the right selections AND the right race.
I spent a year doing incredibly silly things, one massive brain fart on my part. I know how to win now, but this business really is a minefield for newbies, because there are many ways to lose, and only a few ways to win.
I spent a year doing incredibly silly things, one massive brain fart on my part. I know how to win now, but this business really is a minefield for newbies, because there are many ways to lose, and only a few ways to win.
I disagree.Zenyatta wrote:Trouble with trading is that the devil is in the details. The principles may sound simple, but in practice you need exactly the right entry point, exactly the right offset,exactly the right exit point (stop loss) AND the right selections AND the right race.
I'd be amazed if all the pros entered or exited their trades at exactly the same place.
In fact, I'd hazard that it's possible to enter at random and still avoid losing money, providing you manage your trade properly once you're in the market. Have a play with this spreadsheet, which enters trades at random, and see how little money it loses: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=2085.
Anyway, why does entering and exiting at precisely the right point involve lots of analysis? If you're after precision, then subjectively waying up lots of factors (some might call it 'tea leaf reading'!), probably isn't the best way to go...
When people lose, I'd say that, as often as not, it's because their own minds work against them (for example, by not letting them exit a losing trade).Zenyatta wrote:this business really is a minefield for newbies, because there are many ways to lose, and only a few ways to win.
And you might want to consider Euler's argument that, to cross the wafer thin line between loss and profit, all you need to do is cut out obvious mistakes.
Jeff
Occasionally, you'll get a market that jumps around like a flea on acid, but I bet there are adreneline junkies out there who take them on and win! 
But IMHO, markets where not a single horse offers decent trading opportunities are few and far between...
What conditions do you feel need to be met for a market to be tradable, out of interest?
Jeff
But IMHO, markets where not a single horse offers decent trading opportunities are few and far between...
What conditions do you feel need to be met for a market to be tradable, out of interest?
Jeff
Zenyatta wrote:To win you really need to pick the right horses and races - if you pick the wrong darn horses and races, no amount of 'trading',no matter how clever, is going to help you much
The ones I can win on pre-race are the high quality races with low volatility, where clear value selections can be identified.
I've tried trading the mid-week races/winter jumps pre-race, but it's hopeless... those markets are doing the 'Jordan's knickers' routine all the time (high volatility), and it's impossible to know which selections are going to steam in or drift. However, I do have In-Play strategies that can work for these types of races, the winter jumps in particular are especially suited for In-Play IMHO. When I first started it was actually in the UK winter, so In-Play strategies for the jumps was the first thing I was doing.
I've tried trading the mid-week races/winter jumps pre-race, but it's hopeless... those markets are doing the 'Jordan's knickers' routine all the time (high volatility), and it's impossible to know which selections are going to steam in or drift. However, I do have In-Play strategies that can work for these types of races, the winter jumps in particular are especially suited for In-Play IMHO. When I first started it was actually in the UK winter, so In-Play strategies for the jumps was the first thing I was doing.
Then you need to work out how to make the volatility work in your favour.
And why do you need to know what the market will do next? Why not just react to whatever the market gives you? If it gives you a nice big movement in your favour, ride it, and if it goes against you, quickly cut your losses.
Other people manage to trade these markets without having some secret code that tells them where the market will be in 30 seconds' time, so why can't you?
Jeff
And why do you need to know what the market will do next? Why not just react to whatever the market gives you? If it gives you a nice big movement in your favour, ride it, and if it goes against you, quickly cut your losses.
Other people manage to trade these markets without having some secret code that tells them where the market will be in 30 seconds' time, so why can't you?
Jeff
Zenyatta wrote: I've tried trading the mid-week races/winter jumps pre-race, but it's hopeless... those markets are doing the 'Jordan's knickers' routine all the time (high volatility), and it's impossible to know which selections are going to steam in or drift.
Not my style mate. The top traders recieve pictures and commentary from the track and use this to predict short-term price moves. I'm not saying they have inside info (the pictures and commentaries are public knowledge). But you need the right set-up to do that .Ferru123 wrote: Other people manage to trade these markets without having some secret code that tells them where the market will be in 30 seconds' time, so why can't you?
Jeff
I do kinda know how to make the volatility work in my favour, but the pickings are pretty slim I think. As I said, I think In-Play strategies are the best ones for volatile markets.
Some of them might use it as a tool, but there's more to it than that.
I know two top traders who trade trends.
One trades reversals, and enters when the wom indicates that the market might be about to turn sharply. He has a 1 in 4 strike rate, so you can't really call it prediction.
The other analyses price action to predict where a trend will end up.
Jeff
I know two top traders who trade trends.
One trades reversals, and enters when the wom indicates that the market might be about to turn sharply. He has a 1 in 4 strike rate, so you can't really call it prediction.
The other analyses price action to predict where a trend will end up.
Jeff
Zenyatta wrote:The top traders recieve pictures and commentary from the track and use this to predict short-term price moves.
My style and do great from it. No in play for me to risky, but fair game to those that could endure itFerru123 wrote:Some of them might use it as a tool, but there's more to it than that.
I know two top traders who trade trends.
One trades reversals, and enters when the wom indicates that the market might be about to turn sharply. He has a 1 in 4 strike rate, so you can't really call it prediction.
The other analyses price action to predict where a trend will end up.
Jeff
Zenyatta wrote:The top traders recieve pictures and commentary from the track and use this to predict short-term price moves.