Trading Politics : EU Membership Referendum (Brexit)

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Allan R
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:21 am

Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:19 pm

Does anybody know why people put an x in the box when "voting", instead of a name?
Or why people all round the world are marching and "voting" to be able to abort their children?

Interesting..https://youtu.be/owB6RHoPcc8.... .....

Ill add the video about the x for voting when i find it again..if youtube have not hidden it..but basically, if you were to put your name, that would suggest you are educated..and therefore able to govern yourself....but the x suggest we are un-educated and need someone to govern our lives for us..i.e..the government....it also makes us think we have a say in what goes on..like brexit...when really we have no say whatsoever........

https://youtu.be/H5BNVoqMA4o

https://youtu.be/rJPLzMIC7CI

Jukebox
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:07 pm

Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:30 pm

Having been involved in election counts and seen the spoiled papers and ambiguous or non standard marks on ballot papers that all have to be very carefully considered and often argued over - I'm not sure that "please write the name of the candidate/issue you wish to vote for" would be helpful in improving things any way.

Wolf1877
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:59 am

Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:46 pm

sionascaig wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:25 am
BetScalper wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:57 pm
sionascaig wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:35 pm


I thought it was the government that was preparing for food shortages (stock piling) and drafting in the army to deliver potatoes to old folk in the event of shortages - not project fear...?

Great readers letter in the Irish Times:

Brexit: The undefined negotiated by the unprepared to get the unspecified for the uninformed....
Some of us knew exactly what we were voting for.
Well, there was:

- no clear vision
- no white paper setting out consequences
- no impact assessments

I don't think anyone can say they knew what they were voting for & we still don't as evidenced by the ongoing arguments about what Brexit means....

We were asked to jump off a cliff into a land of milk & honey....

This isn't supposed to be a criticism of anyone who voted leave.

I just hope that those that made promises are held accountable by both sides of the debate...

Anyhow, not sure how any of this advances our knowledge of trading so maybe time to end my contribution here )
I think that is all very condescending actually but is very typical of the staunch remainer/establishment view.

I know exactly what I voted for and I know the very many reasons why I voted to leave. I lived and worked overseas in the EU myself for several years (as more recently has one of my kids). I also worked on international cross border import/export/manufacturing/invoicing/accounting/Just In Time systems for a multinational company for many years (both pre and post Maastricht) and I can understand exactly why it is in Multinational's interests to push their largely remain agenda and IMO few of the reasons given are genuine or to the advantage of the public at large. I consider myself to have a very good understanding of the main advantages and disadvantages of leaving. Nobody has a complete vision of the future (Leave, Remain, BRINO, EEA, no deal or WTO). I could and still can make a decision on what I think is the best option for the future of my country, my kids, my family and myself.

The certainties that you seem to think should have been published and guaranteed in visions/white papers/impact assessments are not available for a referendum or indeed any democratic decision such as a general election. They would in any case just be possible projections and subject to be manipulated to help achieve desired political outcomes. Project Fear and the associated government funded leaflet did set out a vision on the expected immediate and medium term impacts of a leave vote. It was wrong by a very wide margin. Lack of certainty on the future mean does not mean that democratic decisions should be abandoned and that we should all just leave it to the so called "experts" in future .Democracy may have its problems but it is generally proven to be far, far better than the alternative systems of government.

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ShaunWhite
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Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:53 pm

Wolf1877 wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:46 pm
I know exactly what I voted for
As did everyone no doubt, the problem is that everyone voted for what they hoped for without knowing what was actually possible. The only certainty is that with only 52% wanting any sort of decoupling, the hardline leavers weren't the majority.

Anyone could see that there was never such a thing as a simple 'leave' and should see that there is no such thing as 'no deal'. Industry, medicines, energy security, food security, scientific research, defence, the air space, the land border etc etc etc and the 80% of national income which comes from the service sector, all require some sort of agreements to be in place, ie, deals. WTO is touted but apart from a few imports/exports it covers almost nothing.
Wolf1877 wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:46 pm
Democracy may have its problems but it is generally proven to be far, far better than the alternative systems of government.
Democracy just puts power in the hands of the least well informed (not brexit, I mean things like economic policy). Most great civilisations weren't democracies, they were benign dictatorships and that includes the Greeks and the Romans who's idea of democracy was quite different to ours and was more akin to a House of Lords.

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BetScalper
Posts: 854
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:47 pm

Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:21 pm

Anyone else think its a coincidence that the countries who will ultimately decide what deal we get are the ones we have had the most wars with. :roll:

Napoleon and Hitler must be rolling with laughter in their coffins....

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ShaunWhite
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Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:34 pm

Yep, millions of lives lost, wars won and then outwitted at every turn since. I can't find much form that says we won't get mugged off in negotiations with China and the US. I obviously hope I'm wrong but we're on a 70 year losing streak and the squad looks as weak as usual.

Wolf1877
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:59 am

Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:43 pm

ShaunWhite wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:53 pm
As did everyone no doubt, the problem is that everyone voted for what they hoped for without knowing what was actually possible. The only certainty is that with only 52% wanting any sort of decoupling, the hardline leavers weren't the majority.

Anyone could see that there was never such a thing as a simple 'leave' and should see that there is no such thing as 'no deal'. Industry, medicines, energy security, food security, scientific research, defence, the air space, the land border etc etc etc and the 80% of national income which comes from the service sector, all require some sort of agreements to be in place, ie, deals. WTO is touted but apart from a few imports/exports it covers almost nothing.
Shaun, that is pretty much accepting every single obstacle and scare story put forward by the remain establishment as pure fact and as though it will cause the end of the world when it is anything but. These are all relatively short term issues that should be relatively easy to sort out. At the moment there are vested interests in making out these issues are impossible to sort out in trying to influence the shape of the future relationship. Once the basics are sorted and accepted the rest will very quickly fall into place.

Defence is currently nothing to do with the EU as it is governed by NATO agreements though the EU have have course announced the formation of an EU army since the referendum - something they denied would happen beforehand.

Air Space? Before the Iron Curtain fell Berlin was surrounded for 45 years by soviet controlled airspace. A more hostile regime to the West you could not find and yet they figured out a way to fly planes over each others territory both into Berlin and across the Soviet controlled Balkans en-route to the middle east etc. After the iron curtain fell all of those former Eastern Block countries figured out ways to share airspace agreements before they joined the EU. This is just a pure remain scare story. The EU aviation and tourist industry simply cannot afford to enter into an airspace war with the UK anymore than the UK aviation industry can afford it. Ryanair did a lot of posturing over this kind of stuff but recently announced an expansion down in Southend.

Services. I saw your post announcing that Lloyds of London were relocation to Brussels. Not really very accurate. They are actually moving 40 of 600 jobs in to Brussels in order to establish an EU base for selling insurance and financial services into the EU. The insurance underwriting will still remain in London. This is very much how things were before the 1992 Single Market established by Maastricht. Firms just opened a subsidiary in every place they needed to have an administrative base.

I accept that It may well be more difficult for UK nationals to work in the EU and vice versa depending on the agreement. Hopefully something sensible can be worked out there. That for me is the single biggest downside to Brexit.

ShaunWhite wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:53 pm
Democracy just puts power in the hands of the least well informed (not brexit, I mean things like economic policy). Most great civilisations weren't democracies, they were benign dictatorships and that includes the Greeks and the Romans who's idea of democracy was quite different to ours and was more akin to a House of Lords.
I guess Hitler, Gadaffi, Saddam, Kim Jong Un and Assad would probably all have thought/think of themselves as being a benign dictator. I dont really see too many genuine benign dictatorships around the world these days. Sheikh Khalifa of the UAE is fairly benign I guess but I'm really struggling to think of another one. I'd rather take democracy thanks.

The great thing about the democratic process it ultimately keeps political leaders on their toes (though no hope for covert remainer May now) and mistakes can be rectified in due course at the next General Election. The great unwashed that you clearly consider unworthy of making democratic decisions can generally figure it out after the fact if a political wrong turn has been made. If things pan out as badly as you fear and we all manage to somehow survive the resulting famine, pestilence, power outages, medicine shortages, planes dropping out out of the sky, nuclear core meltdowns, wars and general breakdown of civilisation as we know it then maybe that will give you some hope for the possible future correction of what you consider to be a huge mistake. When all of those things dont happen post Brexit then I'm hopeful that more balanced views will finally return to concerned remainers like yourself.

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superfrank
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Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:28 pm

Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:44 pm

ShaunWhite wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:53 pm
The only certainty is that with only 52% wanting any sort of decoupling, the hardline leavers weren't the majority.
The question was IN or OUT.

Soft Brexits are just another version of IN, i.e. exactly what 52% didn't vote for. They are also a far stronger association with Europe than was ever envisaged, or mandated, when we joined the common market after the 1975 referendum.

Hard Brexit is just a term used by the media/establishment to portray leaving as some sort of extreme position, and as part of their strategy to overturn a democratic vote by any means necessary.

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BetScalper
Posts: 854
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:47 pm

Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:11 pm

I found it funny what the Irish Prime Minister said.

He does realise that gas gets to the whole of Ireland via a pipe from the UK. Also the whole of Ireland is protected by sea and air via the Royal Navy and Royal Airforce by a standing agreement.

Next time he might want to keep his mouth shut....

brimson25
Posts: 302
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:42 am

Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:53 am

EU ref before 2019 NO is 1.03 to LAY

Given that literally no-one has a clue what will happen that's a seriously short price.

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