It caused me intense frustration too for some time, until I learned to make everything FoK, which seemed non-intuitive as a base methodology for an offset bet. How would anyone intuitively know that the way to place an offset bet after your original bet gets matched is to have a time limit on the original bet? So what must you do if if you simply don't want any time limit on it? Answer: put an incredibly long time limit on it!
Giving the methods different names and removing the necessity to FoK the original bet would solve the confusion, imo.
Offset Bet Matching Nonsense
Must have missed something, as I don't understand the problem?
If you reverse the book you offer a bet to the market which you can then use fill or kill to offset to a profitable position. Or if you don't have fill or kill on the bet just sits there until matched with no offset, you can put that in manually. If you don't reverse the book it offsets immediately if you take out the current price. I thought it was all very straightforward?
We were the very first bit of software to implement it, so I've never looked at others and just assumed they copied out implementation. Struggling to understand what people are doing, what they are trying to achieve and what's wrong. If somebody can spell it out, I'd be grateful.
If you reverse the book you offer a bet to the market which you can then use fill or kill to offset to a profitable position. Or if you don't have fill or kill on the bet just sits there until matched with no offset, you can put that in manually. If you don't reverse the book it offsets immediately if you take out the current price. I thought it was all very straightforward?
We were the very first bit of software to implement it, so I've never looked at others and just assumed they copied out implementation. Struggling to understand what people are doing, what they are trying to achieve and what's wrong. If somebody can spell it out, I'd be grateful.
It works the same using either automation or manual. Their is currently two ways of offsetting (at the time of placing your opening bet and after open bet matches/start matching). I can only think of 4 possible options and for reasons stated on the previous page I don't see any problems the way it is, I certainly don't want to remove anything nor add any additional tick boxes/text so I would stay with option 4
Option 1
Offsetting after opening bet starts matching by default
Offsetting at same time as opening bet placement by tick box
and tick fill/kill just for fill kill
Option 2
Do away with offsetting at same time of opening bet and (which would mean the end for quiet a few strategies) and force all offsets to be placed after opening bet match only and without the need for fill/kill
Option 3
In the drop down box add addition options like
Offset bet
Offset bet after matching
Offset bet with stop
Offset bet after matching with stop
etc etc
Option 4
leave as it is
Dallas, I think the first line of your Option 1 as you describe it is what many, or perhaps most, users expect to happen already. The fact that it's currently necessary to use FoK even if you don't want to, and wouldn't logically expect to have to use it, is the source of the frustration for many. At least it was/is for me. So as I see it, the best solution is a default whereby offsetting only starts after the initial bet's starting to match. If users really want FoK, then they can utilise it as an add-on.
But Option 3 looks good too.
But Option 3 looks good too.
Sounds like this is just a terminology issue, perhaps we just need to update a page of the user guide to give examples of the configuration required for various requirements.
If you want to place a bet and an opposing bet into the market at the same time (priced a specified ticks / percentage away) then just use 'Offset Bet'. This won't care about amounts filled, in-play delays, or anything... it'll just do what you asked.
If you want to wait until the original bet fills before offsetting then you need to tell Bet Angel how long to wait. You use 'Offset Bet' and also give it a Fill or Kill time. This can be a huge number if required as long as you continue to refresh the market (using Guardian perhaps). As soon as the bet completely fills then it'll be offset. If however the timer expires, then the original bet will be cancelled.
If you want to offset a large bet in chunks as it gradually fills, then you'd also specify a number of 'Offset batches' on top of the Fill or Kill time. e.g. A £100 bet with 50 offset batches would place offset bets into the market when at least £2 of the original bet has filled. That way if the bet is nibbled, it is offset as it goes. Once the timer expires, any unmatched bet will be cancelled and any amount not offset in all the batches so far, will then be offset.
That should cover all scenarios.
If you want to place a bet and an opposing bet into the market at the same time (priced a specified ticks / percentage away) then just use 'Offset Bet'. This won't care about amounts filled, in-play delays, or anything... it'll just do what you asked.
If you want to wait until the original bet fills before offsetting then you need to tell Bet Angel how long to wait. You use 'Offset Bet' and also give it a Fill or Kill time. This can be a huge number if required as long as you continue to refresh the market (using Guardian perhaps). As soon as the bet completely fills then it'll be offset. If however the timer expires, then the original bet will be cancelled.
If you want to offset a large bet in chunks as it gradually fills, then you'd also specify a number of 'Offset batches' on top of the Fill or Kill time. e.g. A £100 bet with 50 offset batches would place offset bets into the market when at least £2 of the original bet has filled. That way if the bet is nibbled, it is offset as it goes. Once the timer expires, any unmatched bet will be cancelled and any amount not offset in all the batches so far, will then be offset.
That should cover all scenarios.
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ShaunWhite
- Posts: 9731
- Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am
It is already covered in the user guide on the offsetting & fill/kill page but perhaps highlighting it a bit more and adding images?ShaunWhite wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:40 pmPerfect, simple, flexible. Classic case of a tweak to the manual rather than to the code.
https://www.betangel.com/user-guide/fil ... 3D&mw=MzIw
There is also a thread in the FAQ page which covers it and the use of batches
http://www.betangel.com/forum/viewtopic ... 47&t=11817
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firlandsfarm
- Posts: 2720
- Joined: Sat May 03, 2014 8:20 am
I can understand what you say Dallas but I agree with the principle of 'the ranters' but come at this from a different angle. The default position should always be as it says on the tin with options added to that. To place a trade with offset is to place a trade and if the first bet is met the second bet is then placed. That is the established trading jargon of markets that have been trading for centuries before Betfair was invented. So that should be the default position because that's what it is on the tin in the established trading world. Then you offer an option for the reverse bet to be placed with the first bet if desired. Both positions would be covered and established trading principles will also be upheld.
I am probably missing something, but, this was the issue I was trying to resolve, which, I had a long dialog with 'help' before, and they agreed, I couldnt do it.
I understand offseting doesnt work from the ladder, which would have been first prize, but, from within the one-click screen.
*offsetting, in my language, is placing a bet, at current market back, or below, and when any part of my lay is taken, it places a reverse trade.
So, if the market is 2.50/2.52, I want to place a $200 lay (exposure) at 2.50. As any part of that is taken, a reverse trade is placed. No fill Kill.
I wanted to further mix this, so, that a $200 lay, would have different reverse offsets .. so, some would back at 1 tick higher than laid, some 3 ticks, some 5 ticks.
I think you couldnt create a specific column(s)for this .. and, as I wanted to do it all from a phone, didnt want to mess around with settings.
To my knowledge, I still cant do this .. but can do it, blindfold, on other software.
Can u think of a way to do this ?
Thx
(( Not having a dig at anyone .. I have mutiple subs to Bet Angel -- but, for instance))
On other software, I can set up a column, just one column, that can : - if mkt is 2.50/2.52
Set up a lay for specified liability, at 1 tick below current back price. If any is matched, it places reverse trade to profit, at 1,3,5 ticks steps.
Set up lays, at 5 ticks below current mkt price, 10 ticks below, 20 ticks below etc etc (all custom flexibility)
So, from ONE column, I can send 20 reverse trades.
I understand offseting doesnt work from the ladder, which would have been first prize, but, from within the one-click screen.
*offsetting, in my language, is placing a bet, at current market back, or below, and when any part of my lay is taken, it places a reverse trade.
So, if the market is 2.50/2.52, I want to place a $200 lay (exposure) at 2.50. As any part of that is taken, a reverse trade is placed. No fill Kill.
I wanted to further mix this, so, that a $200 lay, would have different reverse offsets .. so, some would back at 1 tick higher than laid, some 3 ticks, some 5 ticks.
I think you couldnt create a specific column(s)for this .. and, as I wanted to do it all from a phone, didnt want to mess around with settings.
To my knowledge, I still cant do this .. but can do it, blindfold, on other software.
Can u think of a way to do this ?
Thx
(( Not having a dig at anyone .. I have mutiple subs to Bet Angel -- but, for instance))
On other software, I can set up a column, just one column, that can : - if mkt is 2.50/2.52
Set up a lay for specified liability, at 1 tick below current back price. If any is matched, it places reverse trade to profit, at 1,3,5 ticks steps.
Set up lays, at 5 ticks below current mkt price, 10 ticks below, 20 ticks below etc etc (all custom flexibility)
So, from ONE column, I can send 20 reverse trades.
Hi Dallas,
Many thanks for all you posts and free automation files they are much appreciated!
A quick question regarding this thread if I may?
Option 3 offset bet after a match with a stop
I cant seem to locate this option on my automation.
I am using server edition v1.47.0 am I missing something ?
Thanks
Spike
Many thanks for all you posts and free automation files they are much appreciated!
A quick question regarding this thread if I may?
Option 3 offset bet after a match with a stop
I cant seem to locate this option on my automation.
I am using server edition v1.47.0 am I missing something ?
Thanks
Spike
It is true that this is possibly a terminology issue. But broken down to its simplest form Fill/Kill should only ever be used on any software when your intention is to place a bet into the market and if it doesnt FILL (either partially or fully) within the pre-defined timeset the remaining funds are KILLED. Thats it. On BA it also prevents your OFFSET from being placed prior to your initial trade/bet being matched but unless you sit there reading the manual you would have no idea that this was the case. Never one to set the Cat amost the pigeons I also have noticed that there is no automatic (single option) Stop Loss in Global Settings, this must be done manually. Very Odd. Why cant I place a £100 Back bet with a 5 tick offset Stop Loss (hedged or not) @ 5.0 without right clicking the mouse @ 5.5 ?
Some people seem to have taken offense to suggestions that the set up is wrong. Its never my intention to piss people off but it is clear that the FILL/KILL over steps its role to me. Sorry. Ive used BA for around 6-7 years and it offers by far the best software experience/product on the market. It is light years ahead of everything else but from time to time users should be allowed to provide feedback which could tweek it here and there.
Some people seem to have taken offense to suggestions that the set up is wrong. Its never my intention to piss people off but it is clear that the FILL/KILL over steps its role to me. Sorry. Ive used BA for around 6-7 years and it offers by far the best software experience/product on the market. It is light years ahead of everything else but from time to time users should be allowed to provide feedback which could tweek it here and there.
Is it bad form to reply to threads that are 3 years old? If so, apologies. (It seems to make sense to keep the context, if relevant?)
But I agree with the 'ranters' here. The idea that you have to FoK for a 'proper' offset bet is still so weird. (Maybe its a legacy issue )
I was investigating today why an Automation was misbehaving and this was the issue. (I normally use FOK so havent come across this before)
My questions:
1. Is the recommendation that those of us that dont want FoK, that we tick FoK and set it for a long time?
2. What is the transmission mechanism from BF to BA that triggers 'This bet has been taken. It's time to place the offset bet.'? (Or more simply, what is the time lag between the two events?)
THanks
But I agree with the 'ranters' here. The idea that you have to FoK for a 'proper' offset bet is still so weird. (Maybe its a legacy issue )
I was investigating today why an Automation was misbehaving and this was the issue. (I normally use FOK so havent come across this before)
My questions:
1. Is the recommendation that those of us that dont want FoK, that we tick FoK and set it for a long time?
2. What is the transmission mechanism from BF to BA that triggers 'This bet has been taken. It's time to place the offset bet.'? (Or more simply, what is the time lag between the two events?)
THanks
1, Yes, you can just use a load of 9999999s as your timeAnbell wrote: ↑Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:14 amIs it bad form to reply to threads that are 3 years old? If so, apologies. (It seems to make sense to keep the context, if relevant?)
But I agree with the 'ranters' here. The idea that you have to FoK for a 'proper' offset bet is still so weird. (Maybe its a legacy issue )
I was investigating today why an Automation was misbehaving and this was the issue. (I normally use FOK so havent come across this before)
My questions:
1. Is the recommendation that those of us that dont want FoK, that we tick FoK and set it for a long time?
2. What is the transmission mechanism from BF to BA that triggers 'This bet has been taken. It's time to place the offset bet.'? (Or more simply, what is the time lag between the two events?)
THanks
2, As soon as the market is refreshed and the status the bet is matched/begun to be matched is recieved from BF the offset will be triggered. So the faster the refresh the faster the offset will trigger