Losing the will to live with this!
I just cant do this any longer. Just cannot get to grips with this at all and I'm losing money left right and centre. I will put full concentration into successfully making small profits for 5-6 races in a row and then just as I am beginning to build confidence and entertain the idea that I may be starting to crack it, I get shafted on the next one and lose it all and more by getting on the end of a ridiculous swing that has gone so far out in price in such a small space of time that it disappears off the screen. Just unbelievable. I'm finding the whole thing just so stressful and depressing. I have already spent so much money on investing in this trading by spending out on a course, buying the bet angel software and the parallells program to run on my mac and I must have lost a further £200 on trades that have gone wrong. I know I should be taking baby steps and using very small stakes at the beginning but I just can't be doing with pissing about with £2 stakes making 5p. Don't have the patience or the time.
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cybernet69
If you don't have the patience or the time then this game is not for you. It also sounds like your spending money you don't have. Even the best traders in the world have to accept losses.deggsy10 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:36 pmI just cant do this any longer. Just cannot get to grips with this at all and I'm losing money left right and centre. I will put full concentration into successfully making small profits for 5-6 races in a row and then just as I am beginning to build confidence and entertain the idea that I may be starting to crack it, I get shafted on the next one and lose it all and more by getting on the end of a ridiculous swing that has gone so far out in price in such a small space of time that it disappears off the screen. Just unbelievable. I'm finding the whole thing just so stressful and depressing. I have already spent so much money on investing in this trading by spending out on a course, buying the bet angel software and the parallells program to run on my mac and I must have lost a further £200 on trades that have gone wrong. I know I should be taking baby steps and using very small stakes at the beginning but I just can't be doing with pissing about with £2 stakes making 5p. Don't have the patience or the time.
You should go back and look at the 5-6 races you made a profit on. Figure out why it worked, then look at the ones you lost and see if there is anything you did differently or was it a totally different type of event to the others etc.
I think, sadly, that is perhaps your biggest problem.
I'm a new trader. I spent two months on this forum absorbing as much information as I could. I realised my strengths and weaknesses, and have tailored my strategy to that. I've figured out an edge that way, and I am *tentatively* realising some success. On £2 stakes.
This is not some easy, get rich quick scheme and you can't be an Olympic swimmer before you can even float in the water. There are far easier and less stressful ways to make money.
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welshboy06
- Posts: 165
- Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:06 pm
Fellow newbie here. It is frustrating and it does take a while! I've been at it on and off for over a year. Took a good few months off to pursue some other interest and now back with a vengeance!
My job affords me the ability to lose a bit of money while learning to trade (although I make every effort to turn a profit!) I'm moving between 2 and 5 quid stakes atm. It can be tedious for such tiny gains, but I think about it in terms of profit %. If I use £2 stakes and make 20p on a race that's 10% profit. Which I think is a decent margin to aim for at least for a beginner.
This game will take an age to get good at unfortunately. So if you don't need have the time or money then it may not be suited to you. Patience is key!
My job affords me the ability to lose a bit of money while learning to trade (although I make every effort to turn a profit!) I'm moving between 2 and 5 quid stakes atm. It can be tedious for such tiny gains, but I think about it in terms of profit %. If I use £2 stakes and make 20p on a race that's 10% profit. Which I think is a decent margin to aim for at least for a beginner.
This game will take an age to get good at unfortunately. So if you don't need have the time or money then it may not be suited to you. Patience is key!
hi. im new to this too, dipped in and out of it for a couple of years just playing really but i did keep notes of everything i did, now been full time for four months and i agree with what the others say above. i collected over 8 months of stats for a strategy that i tested first and have only gone live with it during the last three weeks trading real money! you have to have patience!
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ruthlessimon
- Posts: 2094
- Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:54 pm
Saw this amazing graph the other day of the progression of a trader (I'm gonna paraphrase a bit so bare with 
):
Year 1: The trader has a linear drop in capital. The trader is making constant errors, because he's learning a new skill. Controlling the losses in this stage, will keep you from seeing an exponential fall in capital. Towards the end of year 1, the trader realises if he trades a £2 stake or a £500 stake, there is no difference in the process. This settles the equity curve going into year 2.
Year 2: As the trader experiments with new ideas, processes & experiences (finding a niche) he hovers around breakeven. Perhaps even managing to pull a small wage to cover the costs of trading (i.e. pay for BA subscriptions, new education etc). As you become more confident with your process, you steadily raise the stakes. But this will still cause bigger swings in p&l, as you adjust to taking bigger loses.
Year 3: By year 3, it's extremely rare you make mistakes. You have become an expert in your process, which will breed new confidence & skills which can be applied across all markets. The exponential rise begins.
):Year 1: The trader has a linear drop in capital. The trader is making constant errors, because he's learning a new skill. Controlling the losses in this stage, will keep you from seeing an exponential fall in capital. Towards the end of year 1, the trader realises if he trades a £2 stake or a £500 stake, there is no difference in the process. This settles the equity curve going into year 2.
Year 2: As the trader experiments with new ideas, processes & experiences (finding a niche) he hovers around breakeven. Perhaps even managing to pull a small wage to cover the costs of trading (i.e. pay for BA subscriptions, new education etc). As you become more confident with your process, you steadily raise the stakes. But this will still cause bigger swings in p&l, as you adjust to taking bigger loses.
Year 3: By year 3, it's extremely rare you make mistakes. You have become an expert in your process, which will breed new confidence & skills which can be applied across all markets. The exponential rise begins.
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Trouble is it will be a lot more difficult to get larger stakes in the region of £500 matched than it is to get £2 matched. That plus the added pressure of using larger stakes and the impact that will have on mindset and subsequent decisions means that you will be playing a completely different game. I would imagine that in order to get large stakes matched you would have to wait until a couple of minutes before the off.welshboy06 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:03 pmFellow newbie here. It is frustrating and it does take a while! I've been at it on and off for over a year. Took a good few months off to pursue some other interest and now back with a vengeance!
My job affords me the ability to lose a bit of money while learning to trade (although I make every effort to turn a profit!) I'm moving between 2 and 5 quid stakes atm. It can be tedious for such tiny gains, but I think about it in terms of profit %. If I use £2 stakes and make 20p on a race that's 10% profit. Which I think is a decent margin to aim for at least for a beginner.
This game will take an age to get good at unfortunately. So if you don't need have the time or money then it may not be suited to you. Patience is key!
So I don't think that mastering it with small stakes necessarily translates into being able to do the same with larger stakes as there will be completely different dynamics involved with the large stakes which are required to make decent money.
deggsy10 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:43 pmTrouble is it will be a lot more difficult to get larger stakes in the region of £500 matched than it is to get £2 matched. That plus the added pressure of using larger stakes and the impact that will have on mindset and subsequent decisions means that you will be playing a completely different game. I would imagine that in order to get large stakes matched you would have to wait until a couple of minutes before the off.welshboy06 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:03 pmFellow newbie here. It is frustrating and it does take a while! I've been at it on and off for over a year. Took a good few months off to pursue some other interest and now back with a vengeance!
My job affords me the ability to lose a bit of money while learning to trade (although I make every effort to turn a profit!) I'm moving between 2 and 5 quid stakes atm. It can be tedious for such tiny gains, but I think about it in terms of profit %. If I use £2 stakes and make 20p on a race that's 10% profit. Which I think is a decent margin to aim for at least for a beginner.
This game will take an age to get good at unfortunately. So if you don't need have the time or money then it may not be suited to you. Patience is key!
So I don't think that mastering it with small stakes necessarily translates into being able to do the same with larger stakes as there will be completely different dynamics involved with the large stakes required to make decent money.
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welshboy06
- Posts: 165
- Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:06 pm
While this is partially true, the underlying understanding of the market remains the same. Plus its not really that hard to get £100-500 matched. Once you're at that level you'll have the understanding of how the market is going to play out and you will be able to patiently wait a few minutes to get your money matched, simply because you know which way the market will play outdeggsy10 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:43 pmTrouble is it will be a lot more difficult to get larger stakes in the region of £500 matched than it is to get £2 matched. That plus the added pressure of using larger stakes and the impact that will have on mindset and subsequent decisions means that you will be playing a completely different game. I would imagine that in order to get large stakes matched you would have to wait until a couple of minutes before the off.welshboy06 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:03 pmFellow newbie here. It is frustrating and it does take a while! I've been at it on and off for over a year. Took a good few months off to pursue some other interest and now back with a vengeance!
My job affords me the ability to lose a bit of money while learning to trade (although I make every effort to turn a profit!) I'm moving between 2 and 5 quid stakes atm. It can be tedious for such tiny gains, but I think about it in terms of profit %. If I use £2 stakes and make 20p on a race that's 10% profit. Which I think is a decent margin to aim for at least for a beginner.
This game will take an age to get good at unfortunately. So if you don't need have the time or money then it may not be suited to you. Patience is key!
So I don't think that mastering it with small stakes necessarily translates into being able to do the same with larger stakes as there will be completely different dynamics involved with the large stakes which are required to make decent money.
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cybernet69
If horse racing is your thing and you get to master it then getting £500 matched on the Favourite 2 minutes before the off is more than possible. Have a look at what MemphisFlash is doing on the Greyhounds, £5 stakes and pulling in close to £80 per day because of the number of races.deggsy10 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:43 pmTrouble is it will be a lot more difficult to get larger stakes in the region of £500 matched than it is to get £2 matched. That plus the added pressure of using larger stakes and the impact that will have on mindset and subsequent decisions means that you will be playing a completely different game. I would imagine that in order to get large stakes matched you would have to wait until a couple of minutes before the off.welshboy06 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:03 pmFellow newbie here. It is frustrating and it does take a while! I've been at it on and off for over a year. Took a good few months off to pursue some other interest and now back with a vengeance!
My job affords me the ability to lose a bit of money while learning to trade (although I make every effort to turn a profit!) I'm moving between 2 and 5 quid stakes atm. It can be tedious for such tiny gains, but I think about it in terms of profit %. If I use £2 stakes and make 20p on a race that's 10% profit. Which I think is a decent margin to aim for at least for a beginner.
This game will take an age to get good at unfortunately. So if you don't need have the time or money then it may not be suited to you. Patience is key!
So I don't think that mastering it with small stakes necessarily translates into being able to do the same with larger stakes as there will be completely different dynamics involved with the large stakes which are required to make decent money.
Not sure what your really trying to achieve. There is a wealth of information on this forum. You just have to sift through it and bring it all together depending on what markets you are trading.
But, if your expecting to become rich within 7 days with no knowledge, hard work, risk or stress then you should give up now. Because it isn't going to happen this decade, the next or this century.
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roger speakout
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:35 pm
man,
your mentality is all wrong.
try using automation to take you out of painful situation. losing it all should not happen.
you should always have a point where you dump your position.
i advise you read blackjack books, because they go through a period of cutting stakes, please get market wizards two by marty schwarz.
overstaking is a killer, you should limit your loses to 1 per cent of capital.
plus overconfidence , is another hurdle. that is why automation is great, you have to keep your emotions in check.
if you enter markets with the same stake, you can become too visible. how do you lay a 15 to 1 without being visible
.
if you are making 2 pounds in every market , that adds up to a lot by the end of the day. Look at results of great traders tey often make 2 dollars then make more when everything is aligned.
just look back at those losing positions, how would you have traded them differently.
you can use stop losses, they are useful in choppy markets.
your mentality is all wrong.
try using automation to take you out of painful situation. losing it all should not happen.
you should always have a point where you dump your position.
i advise you read blackjack books, because they go through a period of cutting stakes, please get market wizards two by marty schwarz.
overstaking is a killer, you should limit your loses to 1 per cent of capital.
plus overconfidence , is another hurdle. that is why automation is great, you have to keep your emotions in check.
if you enter markets with the same stake, you can become too visible. how do you lay a 15 to 1 without being visible
.
if you are making 2 pounds in every market , that adds up to a lot by the end of the day. Look at results of great traders tey often make 2 dollars then make more when everything is aligned.
just look back at those losing positions, how would you have traded them differently.
you can use stop losses, they are useful in choppy markets.
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ShaunWhite
- Posts: 9731
- Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am
That was great (although the graph shows the exponential growth beginning at the very end of year 3)ruthlessimon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:02 pmSaw this amazing graph the other day of the progression of a trader (I'm gonna paraphrase a bit so bare with
Where did you see it?
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ShaunWhite
- Posts: 9731
- Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am
This is something I've seen which ties in with your bit simon...
Learning a new skill has four stages of competence:
Unconscious Incompetence – “I don’t even know what I don’t know“
Conscious Incompetence – “I know what I don’t know and I'm learning it”
Conscious Competence – “I know what to do, but it takes focus and energy“
Unconscious Competence – “I have embodied the skill and I can do it effortlessly“
For new traders, the key takeaways of the learning model are the following:
The development of a trading skill occurs in steps or stages and this is reflected also in the PL:
Traders do not become profitable in one step. They pass through different Stages: from starting to look into trading (unconsciously incompetent) to losing money (consciously incompetent) to break-even (consciously competent) and, finally, to profitability (unconsciously competent).
It is not possible to jump stages: one has to progress from Stage 1 to Stage 2, from Stage 2 to Stage 3 and from Stage 3 to Stage 4.
Lack of practice, burnouts or traumas can have the trainee regress to the previous learning stage.
Also the rush to the next level put the trader at risk to regressing.
Awareness of the stage in which the trainee is it’s critical to the success of the learning process.
By example, assuming that the trainee is in Stage 3 when he is actually in Stage 2 can lead to a failure of the development plan.
Identification of the learning stages serves to better understand and address the obstacles that the novice trader encounters.
Each of us has a different personality, different strengths and different background.
All these things affect how much time and effort are required to complete each stage. For instance, if you have a big ego, you may have tough time to progress from Stage 2 to Stage 3 because you find hard to recognize your incompetence. Also, if you are a very competitive person you may be very quick to go from stage 3 to stage 4 and become top traders. This point helps you to understand that you should not compare yourself with others when learning new skills: learning is a personal journey and not a contest.
Learning a new skill has four stages of competence:
Unconscious Incompetence – “I don’t even know what I don’t know“
Conscious Incompetence – “I know what I don’t know and I'm learning it”
Conscious Competence – “I know what to do, but it takes focus and energy“
Unconscious Competence – “I have embodied the skill and I can do it effortlessly“
For new traders, the key takeaways of the learning model are the following:
The development of a trading skill occurs in steps or stages and this is reflected also in the PL:
Traders do not become profitable in one step. They pass through different Stages: from starting to look into trading (unconsciously incompetent) to losing money (consciously incompetent) to break-even (consciously competent) and, finally, to profitability (unconsciously competent).
It is not possible to jump stages: one has to progress from Stage 1 to Stage 2, from Stage 2 to Stage 3 and from Stage 3 to Stage 4.
Lack of practice, burnouts or traumas can have the trainee regress to the previous learning stage.
Also the rush to the next level put the trader at risk to regressing.
Awareness of the stage in which the trainee is it’s critical to the success of the learning process.
By example, assuming that the trainee is in Stage 3 when he is actually in Stage 2 can lead to a failure of the development plan.
Identification of the learning stages serves to better understand and address the obstacles that the novice trader encounters.
Each of us has a different personality, different strengths and different background.
All these things affect how much time and effort are required to complete each stage. For instance, if you have a big ego, you may have tough time to progress from Stage 2 to Stage 3 because you find hard to recognize your incompetence. Also, if you are a very competitive person you may be very quick to go from stage 3 to stage 4 and become top traders. This point helps you to understand that you should not compare yourself with others when learning new skills: learning is a personal journey and not a contest.