"The Zone"
I've found an issue in my trading. It's about being in the zone. I can clearly state when I'm in the zone, as my decision are made pretty easy. Cutting my loses when it isn't going right is just obvious and I do it without hesitation, as well as letting my profits grow when there are signs that it may continue to move in right direction. OK and now merits of the case. I can get out of the zone within seconds (eg. today: almost clean sheet with one large odd loss). I can be out of the zone in only one market for the day as well it may last days, weeks, even more than month. Losing confidence, making poor judgment and so on. For some time I'm trying to do my best to hold that state of mind. But it still slips away. 2 separete state of minds, professional - winning one, and 2nd as I would be just novice. How to get into the zone and stay there?
Interesting post. I think first and foremost you have to be realistic here, no one in any discipline is going to be in the zone all the time. When you find yourself out of the zone, the more you get frustrated with yourself for not being in the right mindset then the further you push yourself into frustration and away from where you want to be. The best thing you can do is to take a step back and accept that you can't always be at your best and that your form will return. Maybe it's easier said than done, I know myself very well the ups and downs and the frustrations that trading can bring, but if you can learn to take a more detached attitude then it will only do you good. Experiment with taking a few races off when need be, or even try meditating for a certain period before racing, you'll definately find you can focus better without that nagging voice in your head distracting you. Something I did when I was on a bad run once was to trade a whole week without once checking my p+l... basically I let go of the expectations I had been placing upon myself and just traded each market as they came, and as a consequence made more that week than I had in the previous two combined. I think a lot of people suffer from having too high expectations from trading, whether its expecting to be able to make a certain amount every day or expecting to be at your best all the time like a robot, but let's face it it's just not possible
you make some excellent points hgodden.
Not checking your balance during trading is something I believe Peter Webb advocated when he first started running trading courses.
A facility to 'hide' the balance in the corner of the screen might be something which is included in a new version.
Not checking your balance during trading is something I believe Peter Webb advocated when he first started running trading courses.
A facility to 'hide' the balance in the corner of the screen might be something which is included in a new version.
i learnt to kinda of tune up. if im gonna take consistant losses, its usually the first 2 to 4 races on the day . after many months of more or less losing on the first few races i tried trading the first few races with a third of my normal bank.
after about 5 races i could read them much better, and reacted much quicker. if had any losses, they were more or less a third less than they would have been, and only took a couple more to get back level.
everyday/session i now trade i use one third of my bank for the first few races even if i am going really well, it allows me build up confidence and reaction times.
if i start flagging mid way through a session (or any other point), i close out and roll a fag, and watch the market for race or two. then go in again with a third of my bank, tune up again, until something in me says im ok again.
i would suggest you try something similar (maybe not the fag). remember there is always another race, might not be today, certainly tomorrow.
hope this of some help regards.
after about 5 races i could read them much better, and reacted much quicker. if had any losses, they were more or less a third less than they would have been, and only took a couple more to get back level.
everyday/session i now trade i use one third of my bank for the first few races even if i am going really well, it allows me build up confidence and reaction times.
if i start flagging mid way through a session (or any other point), i close out and roll a fag, and watch the market for race or two. then go in again with a third of my bank, tune up again, until something in me says im ok again.
i would suggest you try something similar (maybe not the fag). remember there is always another race, might not be today, certainly tomorrow.
hope this of some help regards.
Great answers from You! Just want to show You the issue directly. After facing these 2 separete state of mind quite many times, my target number one is to minimaze wrong mindset. Here are typical "not in the zone" results - picking up after being completly out of the zone in the begining of the day:
Completly out of the zone day (couldn't pick up):
Maybe they don't happen that often that they prevent me from being in profit overall. But are extremly annoying. When I hear pro traders, eg. Peter saying "3 to 5 losing days for the year", or Adam's similar result I know that it is possible. I don't need to be as good as these outstanding traders. Would be great to have 3-5 small losing days in month. Need to take some serious steps to improve. Tryed not looking at P&L between trading, not as good for me as to force myself to take step back as suggested. Looking for a scheme suitable for me to refoucus and bring back the usual reading market ability and confidence.
Completly out of the zone day (couldn't pick up):
Maybe they don't happen that often that they prevent me from being in profit overall. But are extremly annoying. When I hear pro traders, eg. Peter saying "3 to 5 losing days for the year", or Adam's similar result I know that it is possible. I don't need to be as good as these outstanding traders. Would be great to have 3-5 small losing days in month. Need to take some serious steps to improve. Tryed not looking at P&L between trading, not as good for me as to force myself to take step back as suggested. Looking for a scheme suitable for me to refoucus and bring back the usual reading market ability and confidence.
I tried that yesterday and found I was making more with the smaller stakes than I normally do, so kept them small...learnt to kinda of tune up. if im gonna take consistant losses, its usually the first 2 to 4 races on the day . after many months of more or less losing on the first few races i tried trading the first few races with a third of my normal bank.
This may be due to the difference in ther way money arrives on the early races compared to those later in the day.to75ne wrote:i learnt to kinda of tune up. if im gonna take consistant losses, its usually the first 2 to 4 races on the day . after many months of more or less losing on the first few races i tried trading the first few races with a third of my normal bank.
after about 5 races i could read them much better,.
by hgodden » Sun Oct 04, 2009 11:31 am
This may be due to the difference in ther way money arrives on the early races compared to those later in the day.
Majority of the time, I think that is correct. The first races on any average day on most cards (generally speaking), tend to be low grade and attract lower volumes that seem to pile in, in the last minute before the official off (so it seems to me).
I expect things to move quick but I always seem to “forget” how quickly, or sometimes they don’t move as quick as I think they do, or they move when I don’t expect it. No matter how many continuous days I have been trading, every new day my mind “forgets” or as a “false memory” of how fast//slow the market moves and when. Hence the 3 or 4 warm up/tune up races.
This may be due to the difference in ther way money arrives on the early races compared to those later in the day.
Majority of the time, I think that is correct. The first races on any average day on most cards (generally speaking), tend to be low grade and attract lower volumes that seem to pile in, in the last minute before the official off (so it seems to me).
I expect things to move quick but I always seem to “forget” how quickly, or sometimes they don’t move as quick as I think they do, or they move when I don’t expect it. No matter how many continuous days I have been trading, every new day my mind “forgets” or as a “false memory” of how fast//slow the market moves and when. Hence the 3 or 4 warm up/tune up races.
Krzysztof
I hope this does not sound or come over as a dig, I don’t mean it to be.
Do you think you are spending to much time trying to achieve this almost mystical state of “in the zone”? It seems to be the in thing at the moment.
Your losses appear to be out of proportion to your gains. Your gains are fine, do you think you might be better concentrating on scratching quicker rather than worrying about being in the zone.
I don’t think you are seeing the woods for the trees. Try scratching quicker and im quite sure you will find “the zone” naturally.
I hope that makes sense
Regards tony.
I hope this does not sound or come over as a dig, I don’t mean it to be.
Do you think you are spending to much time trying to achieve this almost mystical state of “in the zone”? It seems to be the in thing at the moment.
Your losses appear to be out of proportion to your gains. Your gains are fine, do you think you might be better concentrating on scratching quicker rather than worrying about being in the zone.
I don’t think you are seeing the woods for the trees. Try scratching quicker and im quite sure you will find “the zone” naturally.
I hope that makes sense
Regards tony.
To75ne, actually I've posted those days P&L's which aren't a majority to set the scene. As I stated I'm in profit overall. Your answers are pretty close to my thoughts so I think I'm getting You right.
There is no problem for me to have almost clean sheet of P&L's when I'm in the good rythm and losses will be pretty small. I'm really good there at scratching trades and restarting my positions when I see an opportunity.
Sometimes I find myself trying too hard. When I'm trying too hard it might be that I try to push myself (and market) but the market isn't responding well, but my wrong state of mind prevents me from receiving that negative information, so I keep trying with poor results.
I really like Your answers and find them helpfull.
I'm on my learning curve and seems to me that the more I will "slow down" with my attitude the more actually I will speed up my results.
Would be great to see more views from You pro traders.
I've also found latest Peter's webinar helpful.
There is no problem for me to have almost clean sheet of P&L's when I'm in the good rythm and losses will be pretty small. I'm really good there at scratching trades and restarting my positions when I see an opportunity.
Sometimes I find myself trying too hard. When I'm trying too hard it might be that I try to push myself (and market) but the market isn't responding well, but my wrong state of mind prevents me from receiving that negative information, so I keep trying with poor results.
I really like Your answers and find them helpfull.
I'm on my learning curve and seems to me that the more I will "slow down" with my attitude the more actually I will speed up my results.
Would be great to see more views from You pro traders.
I've also found latest Peter's webinar helpful.
Hi,
I have only ever experienced what I think being in "The Zone" is. As a lazy student I spent almost three years playing, of all things, table football, hour after hour, day after day. I improved, a lot, for two years. It got so that I could use skills and techniques very quickly "pull the ball-shoot" I would think. I thought that I had reached my peak, but I was wrong. As I played more, I found that my mind "disconnected" from the process and I got faster and better. To me that is "The Zone", it's something that comes with practice. I should point out that I am an awful trader, even after playing with it, on and off for over three years. I invariably lose money trading, but get it back using the dutching facility. I can see no logic or patterns in it, but I think I will, in time and to me that's the secret, practice practice and more practice, now where's the nearest table football?
cheers, P
I have only ever experienced what I think being in "The Zone" is. As a lazy student I spent almost three years playing, of all things, table football, hour after hour, day after day. I improved, a lot, for two years. It got so that I could use skills and techniques very quickly "pull the ball-shoot" I would think. I thought that I had reached my peak, but I was wrong. As I played more, I found that my mind "disconnected" from the process and I got faster and better. To me that is "The Zone", it's something that comes with practice. I should point out that I am an awful trader, even after playing with it, on and off for over three years. I invariably lose money trading, but get it back using the dutching facility. I can see no logic or patterns in it, but I think I will, in time and to me that's the secret, practice practice and more practice, now where's the nearest table football?
cheers, P
Hi to all the members. I'm new to the forum and was impressed with the answers given re "The Zone". So please forgive me if I repeat what others have said, or say things which you - as experienced traders - have heard before.
Personally, the prime objective for me is to protect my capital. If that means scratching a trade or taking a small loss, fine. This was the hardest discipline to master when learning to trade profitably (for me, at least).
After mastering this, I stopped watching the P/L. It was a distraction. As long as I was cutting losses, the profits crept slowly upwards and took care of themselves.
The only time I take the P/L into consideration is if it "feels" as though the losses are are reaching my personal loss limit. I check it briefly, and if the maximum loss hasn't been reached I continue with my trading.
Taking 1 or more ticks is dependant on many factors as you well know. Volume, momentum, liquidity, time frames used to trade etc. For this reason, there can never be a hard and fast rule as to what works best as each market has its own unique fingerprint. For myself, I class 1 tick as a scalp, and anything more than 1 tick as a swing trade. Which way I go is determined by the various factors I mentioned earlier.
When you cut your losses, you're in the zone. When you curb any temptation to be greedy and take the profit, you're in the zone. The instant you sacrifice discipline for gambling you're out of the zone.
In short, to stay in the zone you must be rock solidly unwavering in sticking to your own personal method of discipline. This is what gives you the psychological edge which can be a powerful weapon against self-doubt.
The other posters have offered excellent advice. This is just my 2 cents worth - if 2 cents is worth anything these days.
Hope this helps in you finding that "zone" amidst the minefields of sports markets trading.
Best Regards and all the best with your trading.
Mercury
Personally, the prime objective for me is to protect my capital. If that means scratching a trade or taking a small loss, fine. This was the hardest discipline to master when learning to trade profitably (for me, at least).
After mastering this, I stopped watching the P/L. It was a distraction. As long as I was cutting losses, the profits crept slowly upwards and took care of themselves.
The only time I take the P/L into consideration is if it "feels" as though the losses are are reaching my personal loss limit. I check it briefly, and if the maximum loss hasn't been reached I continue with my trading.
Taking 1 or more ticks is dependant on many factors as you well know. Volume, momentum, liquidity, time frames used to trade etc. For this reason, there can never be a hard and fast rule as to what works best as each market has its own unique fingerprint. For myself, I class 1 tick as a scalp, and anything more than 1 tick as a swing trade. Which way I go is determined by the various factors I mentioned earlier.
When you cut your losses, you're in the zone. When you curb any temptation to be greedy and take the profit, you're in the zone. The instant you sacrifice discipline for gambling you're out of the zone.
In short, to stay in the zone you must be rock solidly unwavering in sticking to your own personal method of discipline. This is what gives you the psychological edge which can be a powerful weapon against self-doubt.
The other posters have offered excellent advice. This is just my 2 cents worth - if 2 cents is worth anything these days.
Hope this helps in you finding that "zone" amidst the minefields of sports markets trading.
Best Regards and all the best with your trading.
Mercury