Betfair Exchange API : A suitable language to build a bot for a complete beginner?

Speculator_3
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:01 pm

Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:04 pm

LinusP wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 7:51 am
Speculator_3 wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 12:25 am
spreadbetting, Shaun, pythonic et al: thanks for all your replies.

Shaun: you mentioned SQL / database connectivity. I would only need this if I wanted to test historical data, right?

Another thing. Untill now, I was under the impression that Betfair API readily provides the live scoreline info. Then I saw this thread: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=12490.

Am I correct in understanding that in fact, it is not possible to obtain a scoreline update from the API (in the first post in that thread it's mentioned "Without an actual score feed to trigger bets following a goal...") ? Is this lack of a score feed due to Betfair API itself, and as such would be universal, or is that thread only relevant for BetAngel software users?
If you go down the python route, I have added the inplayservice endpoint which is what the Betfair website uses for scores.

https://github.com/liampauling/betfair

https://github.com/liampauling/betfair/ ... service.py
Thanks Linus - will have a look.

I had a look at some commercial bots available for purchase - looks like they can't do apriori exactly what I want (maybe they can, but it's not straightforward to set them up like this).

So indeed, I will have to head down the route of trying to build this bot myself.

firlandsfarm
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Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:05 am

ShaunWhite wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:55 pm
... it might take you 6+ months working on it full time and that's before you even start to work on finding edges …
johnsheppard wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 4:11 am
Personally, I think 6 months is optimistic....well...yes the very basics....but realistically, a lot more to work is required to get to something that doesn't already exist out there...
Shaun/John, are you suggesting it would take one person at least 6 months, full time, to design, write and debug the code for a bot? I find that amazing. I'm not saying I disagree, I have no idea what would be involved but … wow!

I have used BA off and on over the years (currently on :) ) and have tried to compare it within a group of available bots. That is at least 6 months work and at the end you still don't know if you are going to get what you want. yes you can draw up a "does and does not" list but it's not until you use a bot and really get into it that you realise just how important those little seemingly insignificant do's are. Public bots evolve 'democratically'. They start in their originator's eye and then embark down the evolution road. The journey is largely influenced by the originator's developing needs but as the originator slowly exhausts their list of needs this gives way to what the users want tempered by commercial reality so it may never do what some users want.

To discover what you can do with a bot takes an extraordinary length of time. First you learn what it does (that's the comparatively easy part, you read a manual) but then you have to link those exclusive facilities together to find out what it can do. But at that stage you are not sufficiently familiar with what it does to immediately think "if I do A then B and lastly C it will do what I want" so you spend a lot of time thinking how to do it and you ask and beg for help on a forum and maybe, if you are lucky you work your way through it. To learn each bot is no different to learning each programming language. So for some it may be quicker to learn and build their own bot than compare off the shelf products and at the end of it not only do they (hopefully) have something that does exactly what they want (within the capabilities of the market) but maybe they have something they can sell. Of course another alternative is to find a guy beavering away in his bedroom to write the code but that has it's downsides.

BA is a very good product and I would put it in the top 2 of the ones I have looked at but I think the market is wanting a bot builder along the lines of the various web builders (e.g. Wix) and financial market builders (e.g. MetaTrader).

PeterLe
Posts: 3580
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:19 pm

Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:33 am

Re the Book..
3) Don't waste your time, I bought it and it's pretty much useless and outdated there's even a separate web page for it to cover all the errors/omissions in the book. There's a Betfair developers forum and snippets out there for most languages to get up and running.

[/quote]

Id agree with this; i hit some problems and the author wouldn't help (nor were the errors covered in his separate web pages) Its out of date now anyway

i already had my own bots up and running anyway which were built with C++
If you are new to coding, there are some great courses on UDEMY, for around £15 - £20
regards
Peter

firlandsfarm
Posts: 1200
Joined: Sat May 03, 2014 8:20 am

Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:04 pm

PeterLe wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:33 am
If you are new to coding, there are some great courses on UDEMY, for around £15 - £20
Thanks for mentioning that Peter, never come across that website before, it looks to be a huge depository of information

PeterLe
Posts: 3580
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:19 pm

Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:34 pm

firlandsfarm wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:04 pm
PeterLe wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:33 am
If you are new to coding, there are some great courses on UDEMY, for around £15 - £20
Thanks for mentioning that Peter, never come across that website before, it looks to be a huge depository of information
No probs; glad it was of use
By the way; DONT pay the full price, there are loads of codes around for discounts on Udemy, you shouldn't pay more than say £20...
Thanks
Peter

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ShaunWhite
Posts: 6188
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:03 pm

PeterLe wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:34 pm
firlandsfarm wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:04 pm
PeterLe wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:33 am
If you are new to coding, there are some great courses on UDEMY, for around £15 - £20
Thanks for mentioning that Peter, never come across that website before, it looks to be a huge depository of information
No probs; glad it was of use
By the way; DONT pay the full price, there are loads of codes around for discounts on Udemy, you shouldn't pay more than say £20...
Thanks
Peter
I'd give big thumbs up to Udemy aswell. Nice curated and quality checked. A little structured learning is so much more productive than just randomly picking up things. Do a couple of hours a day and you'll soon be doing some really quite useful stuff, I don't know why everyone doesn't do it.

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johnsheppard
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Location: Cairns Australia

Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:33 am

firlandsfarm wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:05 am
Shaun/John, are you suggesting it would take one person at least 6 months, full time, to design, write and debug the code for a bot? I find that amazing. I'm not saying I disagree, I have no idea what would be involved but … wow!
Honestly, its really hard to say. That's what I guetimate....I can say with 99% certainty than anything software engineering related will 100% of the time get underestimated by inexperienced people. I can also say with probably the same degree of certainty that experienced people will underestimate also. There are just way too many unknowns... It's inevitable that you make mistakes....its really easy not to plan time for that...

I can tell you from my experience. It took me about 1 month full time to grasp 80% of the betfair API and get it up and working using C# APING code....just to place orders, and monitor markets....really really basic stuff...nothing that will make anyone any money... (I have not made any yet :))... to make that code into a robust, fault resistant useful bot....is a whole lot more.... But yeah, I dont claim to be an expert, just I have poked my finger at it and made quiet a few mistakes...that's all...maybe someone that doesnt make as many mistakes as me might be quicker :)
firlandsfarm wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:05 am
BA is a very good product and I would put it in the top 2 of the ones I have looked at but I think the market is wanting a bot builder along the lines of the various web builders (e.g. Wix) and financial market builders (e.g. MetaTrader).
I've run out of time right now...but I will return to discuss this later...

pythonic
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:20 pm

Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:47 am

johnsheppard wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:33 am

Honestly, its really hard to say. That's what I guetimate....I can say with 99% certainty than anything software engineering related will 100% of the time get underestimated by inexperienced people. I can also say with probably the same degree of certainty that experienced people will underestimate also. There are just way too many unknowns... It's inevitable that you make mistakes....its really easy not to plan time for that...
That is a good point indeed.
When I started programming many years ago and later started to write my first real world applications I wasted a LOT of time reinventing the wheel and that is a typical beginners error.
They also tend to underestimate the time and efford it takes to get 'small and simple' things right and bug-free.
Simple strategies like 'bet on A at time t when conditions X and Y are met' would surely be much easier to implement with BA or other software than by building your own bot from scratch, especially without any programming experience.

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ShaunWhite
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Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:29 pm

firlandsfarm wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:05 am
Shaun/John, are you suggesting it would take one person at least 6 months, full time, to design, write and debug the code for a bot? I find that amazing. I'm not saying I disagree, I have no idea what would be involved but … wow!
More if they have to learn how to program first. And then with zero experience the design will be flawed, and code would be as buggy as hell. The simple way would also result in an exe that's pretty much just doing the one job, to create something that's a good framwork for improving easily to accomodate other strategies would require foresight and experience. If it were easy then why do quality designers and coders, who also understand the specific industry earn 5 - 600+ a day? Plus 'you' might be hopeless at it and simply not have the right type of brain for being hyper analytical.

I'd put writing a decent little system on par with making a basic gearbox, all sounds easy, 1 input, 1 output and a bunch of cogs on shafts inbetween, doable. But you need to learn a CAD system, master your CNC tooling, learn to weld, learn to make castings, re-invent what's already been discovered....and then you realise you've missed out a 3rd gear and have to start again. And that's all with stuff you can see and touch, not a bunch of electromagnetism with hidden 'features' all explained via a correspondance course (forums & yt). If you're the type of guy who likes making stuff then it's worth a try, but if your problem solving skills extend to changing a light bulb, forget it.

Incidentally, what features does this 'bot' need that can't be done either with BA, or by building an interface to BA (via the excel DDE) and letting BA do all the messy stuff like order placement, position keeping, monitoring etc etc? My first foray into my own trading stuff (after 30yrs of being in IT anyway) used BA as the transaction processing engine, and that worked reasonably well until it's limitations meant taking it out of the loop at a later stage. That said I still use it to monitor what's going on. BA's openness (data out, trades in) is a fantastic asset, don't just discount it and throw the baby out with the bathwater.

firlandsfarm
Posts: 1200
Joined: Sat May 03, 2014 8:20 am

Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:40 pm

ShaunWhite wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:29 pm
Incidentally, what features does this 'bot' need that can't be done either with BA, or by building an interface to BA
I have no idea but it will be something similar to what some people said what will this Wordpress thing have that you can't do with Frontpage. I was simply referring to what the future may hold. As more and more become involved in 'botting' the products will get better and better until someone says … "Hey I got it, we need to build a framework structure like that Wordpress thing where people can drop modules in and link them together to make a custom bot."

It will have database modules where you subscribe to a module that allows you to do the research you want be it sports results or price history. It will have modules for each exchange and whatever each bookmaker has evolved into to facilitate placing bets across the whole market. It will have modules to analyse your betting/trading performance and help you identify where you could improve probably with machine learning functions. The biggest thing is, like Wordpress, it will be designed specifically for plug-in modules and like Wordpress 3rd parties could design and sell their own modules … tipsters would have plug-ins that administer their selections for you and some might get a module that automatically places the bets from the tipster plug-in to the Market Bet Placement module. it won't be tomorrow, it won't be next year, it may not be in the little that's left of my lifetime but it will be the future at some point. There is lots that will be done in the future, the industry is young but when it matures …..

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