Courtsiding Cheaters?

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mister man
Posts: 363
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:10 pm

whatever....

god help us, with this level of morality or care for others...
a cheat wins means someone has been cheated...

ive yet to meet a punter thats happy to lose,but most accept it as part of the process,you win you lose.

have that same conversation, and suggest that the person/bookie/exchange already knew your bet was lost when they accepted it, (not when you placed it, only when they took it)and they lose that c'est la vie demeanour...
these cheats would not escape serious serious consequences were they identified..

cheatings cheating, thefts theft
Innertube
Posts: 215
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:18 am

To counter the view that its wrong what about this...

All bookmakers win, so would you call that theft?

Most would accept that bookies are there to take money off people, because they offer odds or pricing structures that make it very hard to win. People go into a bet knowing that, but its perfectly acceptable and not consider immoral or underhanded.
mister man
Posts: 363
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:10 pm

cant you read innertube

the point is they knew you bet was lost when they accepted it, they only accept it when its lost and they know it,no bookie does that,they might think it,but they dont know its lost, as these cheats do...

tbh an 8 yr old could see the difference..cant you !!!! ?????
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superfrank
Posts: 2762
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:28 pm

in financial trading, courtsiding is the equivalent of getting the economic news first.

no one gets the news before the investment banks, so day trading around significant news is a risk that has to be accepted for those willing to take (or hold) positions at those times.

the investment bank traders probably get access to much news before its official announcement, but cannot be seen to act before the official announcement. so they wait until the second it's announced before smashing into the market (and/)or quietly build positions in advance.

it's no good moaning about it, one has to accept reality.

hopefully, one day, technology will allow everybody access to the same info at the same time, whether that be sporting or financial. until that time we just need to accept that things are not perfect (and do our best not to feed the sharks).
steven1976
Posts: 1744
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:28 am

Absolutely nothing wrong with courtsiding in my opinion. If people make the extra effort to go to an event to have an edge over the lazy guy sat in the comfort of his home with some superfast satalite system, then I say fair play to them. Ive done it once at the thai tennis open last year and if people say I was cheating then Ill not lose sleep over it.
fuzzer54
Posts: 109
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:23 pm

To be a cheat you have to break the rules. No one is breaking any rules as far as I can see. And anyone who believes there is any such thing as a level playing field in any financial market is living in cloud cuckoo land.
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LeTiss
Posts: 5386
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:04 pm

fuzzer54 wrote:To be a cheat you have to break the rules. No one is breaking any rules as far as I can see. And anyone who believes there is any such thing as a level playing field in any financial market is living in cloud cuckoo land.
I agree with that totally. I'm not sure what people are getting so worked up about, because until they start trying to manipulate results, all they are doing is taking advantage of technology available. As Andy mentioned in the other thread, courtsiders are no different to traders using a VPS connection.

MM seems particularly angry, but if he's a successful trader then he's making money at the expense of other BF users, he's taking advantage of their mistakes and poor decisions. If people didn't leave money sat in a market where others are holding the aces, then the courtsiders would have no money to mop up.
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MarketTrader
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:34 pm
Location: UK

This article seems to imply it is against the rules:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tennis ... kland.html
The Tennis Integrity Unit launched an investigation on Tuesday after a spectator, suspected of illegal betting, was ejected from the Heineken Open tournament in Auckland.
This page on the Australian Open website talks about zero tolerance - Illegal gambling and match-fixing

http://www.australianopen.com/en_AU/eve ... guide.html
Then this page says the words 'illegal betting' - http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tennis/7241383.stm
The expulsions are the first cases in tennis's new anti-corruption policies to clamp down on illegal betting.
Have I missed the point here? Or are we able to pick and choose the rules we follow?
steven1976
Posts: 1744
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:28 am

Someone posted somewhere that it is illegal within australia to bet on inplay events I think.
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CaerMyrddin
Posts: 1271
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:47 am

So, if you bet against a courtsider you are certain you will lose? Sure... Having no value is one thing, being a certain loser a different one!

So, if courtsiders are cheaters, those betting against them aren't just utterly stupid?
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MarketTrader
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:34 pm
Location: UK

steven1976 wrote:Someone posted somewhere that it is illegal within australia to bet on inplay events I think.
Fair enough. I guess it's all ok then.

I'll just leave my ethics at the door and smash up my moral compass.
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SBW077
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:03 pm

I remember reading on a blog somewhere that the live streams for horse racing on BF video are only 2 or 3 seconds behind real time. If this is indeed possible with today's technology, why is there so much more lag when streaming from tennis venues? Even the most remote tournament should not result in any more than one extra second of latency, bringing us to 3 to 4 seconds maximum delay, rather than the 6 to 10 seconds we're subjected to.

I would love nothing more than to see a more level playing field, and frankly I'm happy that even the less obvious courtsiders (mobile hidden in pocket) are increasingly spotted and thrown out of various events. Courtsiding is no different than collusion in poker games IMO; they do nothing but hurt liquidity by creating an increasingly well-known disincentive for small players and potential new players to get involved in the markets.
mpendle
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:09 pm

I personally see nothing wrong with them. They pay large amounts of money to get the "feed" that they get. Anyone else can do the same if they want. It is no different to someone watching Racing on Channel 4 compared to someone else watching on ATR. You can choose how you receive your information and these people pay a little more for a better feed.

I think you will also find that without them, the tennis betting markets would be empty. They market make and give every other punter liquidity to match bets against.

I like the fact that someone has likened it to financial markets. There are financial institutions that spend millions to get information <10ms quicker than others. Surely this is just the same?

I just make sure, as Peter has mentioned recently, that I only bet at times where I am not vulnerable (sit downs etc).
mpendle
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:09 pm

I think it needs to be made clear that this doesn't just happen in Tennis and Horse Racing. It happens in every sport that is offered in play on Betfair. Cricket, Football, you name it.

The point is, is that if you didn't have courtsiders, you would still have people fighting over technology and feeds to get the information first so that they can profit from those people who even despite seeing the point is over decide to leave their bet or forget to cancel. There will always be people leaving bad value bets in the market and therefore someone will always be able to take that bet. If they aren't allowed to do this courtside, there will just be another arms race, just not courtside. Again one person will pay the money and be first to match these bets. Are they cheating, no. They are just profiting from other peoples mistakes, in the same way that anyone who is making money on Betfair is doing.
As posted on the other thread.
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marqasa
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:32 pm

I think the problem is that if you say court-siders are cheating then you have to say that people with the fastest TV pictures are also cheating.

If Virgin Media is faster than Freeview are people who use Virgin Media cheating? Or anyone who uses a TV feed over a Befair live stream?

Eventually you have to go as far as saying, unless we're all getting the same info at exactly the same time someone must be cheating.

In my mind no-one is cheating, it's just a case of knowing when you have an advantage over others and when you need to be careful because others probably have an advantage over you.

Isn't that what trading's all about anyway!?
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