Professional trader?

A place to discuss anything.
Post Reply
User avatar
Euler
Posts: 24701
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:39 pm
Location: Bet Angel HQ

I had a debate last night, which was more or less unresolved.

Lots of people claim to be one, but what actually would be your definition of a professional trader on Betfair? If somebody came to you and you sought advice from them as a professional what exactly should you expect them to be able to prove?

I'd be interested in what you would define a 'professional' trader? What hurdles should you jump to say you are a 'professional'?
User avatar
ShaunWhite
Posts: 9731
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

'Professional " simply means that you're engaged in a activity as one's main paid occupation. Eg professional golfer, professional window cleaner etc.

I don't think it necessary describes a high degree of excellence or ability, but that's the usual connotation as it was usually reserved for occupations that required qualifications Eg lawyers or dentists.
CallumPerry
Posts: 575
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:12 pm
Location: Wolverhampton

Manual traders aside, I think you could (and I'm trying to) do this job on the side (for now). If automation makes 20x what I make at a 'real' job - by real I mean taxable so I can keep a good credit score and get a mortgage - but you still do a 9-5 I'd still class you as professional, under certain circumstances.

You could argue a certain number of trades/markets, anything profit above what you started with or number of years active as being a good measure of one's professional status; it's such a grey area. Maybe in the context of having a conversation whereby you're telling somebody you are a professional trader, you at least need to match a minimum wage per year with your winnings?? I'm not sure.
User avatar
northbound
Posts: 737
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:22 pm

A professional trader to me is someone who profits in excess of £20-30k a year trading.

More credible if he is not trying to sell a product or a course.

Even more credible if he could show me a simple, replicable edge or angle.
JTEDL
Posts: 536
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:21 pm

If someone was to trade for a living and no other job, would that make them a 'professional trader' or a 'full time trader' or are both the same thing???

I suppose a professional trader could also have another job...and what about 'professional gambler'? I've heard that also.
User avatar
Kafkaesque
Posts: 886
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:20 am

ShaunWhite wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:30 pm
'Professional " simply means that you're engaged in a activity as one's main paid occupation. Eg professional golfer, professional window cleaner etc.

I don't think it necessary describes a high degree of excellence or ability, but that's the usual connotation as it was usually reserved for occupations that required qualifications Eg lawyers or dentists.
I'd say your definition is technically correct, but needs specifications to be more than that.

For me it's, as you state, typically used for specialized professions, and not say pro Tesco cashier, because the education and qualifications, barring being completely inept, guarentees a good lifetime income. You need some specific markers, as a trader, to equal that status.

By your definition anyone could quit their day job today, make more than they would have in that job over the next week, and call themselves a pro.

- Overall black numbers on the bottom line over at least the latest 12 months.
- 6-12 months worth of your TOTAL expenses to continue your current lifestyle, ring-fenced outside of your bankroll, and earned through trading.

Somewhere in that region would be my definition.
User avatar
Derek27
Posts: 23476
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:44 am
Location: UK

I don't think there's a clear definition but technically, if you work full time as a painter, don't make enough money to live on and have to live off your savings, you could still call yourself a professional painter simply because you are charging and earning. Nevertheless, you would be misleading people by calling yourself professional because they're likely to assume you're making a living from it.

Of course, the word professional is an adjective as well as a noun, meaning of a high (professional) standard, and calling yourself a professional at anything, can and is bound to be taken as doing it to a professional standard. Perhaps the term crap professional would come in useful - I do remember a very honest woman who said her husband's a part-time window cleaner but not very good at it and takes ages to do each window. :)
TipTopTrader
Posts: 462
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:29 pm

I would wan't them to prove they have made over 100k per year for at least 5 years straight.Premium charge included.
User avatar
ShaunWhite
Posts: 9731
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

7 replies, 7 different opinions.

That probably just proves that once you're past the dictionary definition then it's entirely subjective. TipTopTraders definition even requires them to have specific life objectives, like earning more than necessary and not having occassional years off.

The safest thing to do is to expect a very low dictionary definition threshold when people use the term to describe themselves, and assume slightly higher threshold if someone is being described by someone else.

I tend to view people who feel the need to prefix their job with 'professional' as being a bit insecure and needy, it's entirely unnecessary fluff when the term has been so bastardised. If you make a living as a plumber you're a plumber, 'professional plumber' adds nothing. Ditto Trader. It's more informative though where the activity would be an unlikely way to earn a living and sound more like a hobby, like a professional Scrabble player or professional YouTuber.
JTEDL
Posts: 536
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:21 pm

ShaunWhite wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:56 am
I tend to view people who feel the need to prefix their job with 'professional' as being a bit insecure and needy, it's entirely unnecessary fluff when the term has been so bastardised. If you make a living as a plumber you're a plumber, 'professional plumber' adds nothing. Ditto Trader. It's more informative though where the activity would be an unlikely way to earn a living and sound more like a hobby, like a professional Scrabble player or professional YouTuber.
^ this, it's just a way to make you appear better - I can't think of many jobs/professions where some calls themselves a 'professional xxxxxx' -eg teachers,doctors, accountants, shop assistants, plumbers etc etc.

Do shares/forex/futures traders call themselves 'pro' ?
User avatar
wearthefoxhat
Posts: 3206
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:55 am

IMO, a pro trader is someone that uses their time/resources to research. plan and execute their trades, be it manually or with automation. Essentially that's all they do, up to as many hours in the day as necessary to fulfil the role.

The quirk in taxation (or lack of it) in the UK, with regard to exchange traders/trading, makes it a worthwhile pursuit, if profitable.

If pro trading is all someone does, it might be worth creating a facade and register self employed, pay a class 2 national insurance (approx £25 a month) that covers future state pension rights. If your a big winner, employ an accountant to ensure all self assessment deadlines are met.

If you do it yourself, it's all done on-line through the HMRC portal on gov.uk.
foxwood
Posts: 390
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:54 pm

Not difficult - Oxford dictionary ...
Engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as an amateur. eg ‘a professional boxer’
The only standard it implies is that there is enough money coming in from the occupation to live on.

So it doesn't mean they are competent, knowledgeable, rich, famous, intelligent or successful - only that they earn enough to scrape by on.

Caveat emptor when a "professional" tries to sell you something :D
User avatar
mjmorris335
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:29 am

foxwood wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:07 am
Not difficult - Oxford dictionary ...
Engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as an amateur. eg ‘a professional boxer’
The only standard it implies is that there is enough money coming in from the occupation to live on.

So it doesn't mean they are competent, knowledgeable, rich, famous, intelligent or successful - only that they earn enough to scrape by on.

Caveat emptor when a "professional" tries to sell you something :D
I spent 35 years as professional musician and entertainer. The above quote works but there's something else to being a 'professional', IMV.

In music the difference between a pro and an amateur is not just about the money. Amateurs can earn the same as pros in certain circumstances.

The real difference is in attitude: an amateur will practice until he/she gets it right. A pro practices until he/she can't get it wrong.

Mike
User avatar
PDC
Posts: 2272
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:52 pm

Euler wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:13 pm
Lots of people claim to be one, but what actually would be your definition of a professional trader on Betfair?

I'd be interested in what you would define a 'professional' trader? What hurdles should you jump to say you are a 'professional'?
The short answer simply put, is I would define a 'professional trader' as a cock.

As soon as I hear anyone prefix their job with the word professional alarm bells go up, tbh it only seems to happen in trading. To me they come across as someone who is for whatever reason trying to put themselves above others, they aren't satisfied in their own ability deep down and or the level of recognition they receive for what they achieve. They are insecure and feel they need to try and put others down to boost their own feelings in what they do.

It seems to be something that has been created around trading on Betfair. I don't know one other person who feels a need to prefix what they do with the word professional. You don't hear people say they are a professional teacher, a professional doctor, a professional builder, professional butcher, professional taxi driver, professional porn star ;) If I did hear someone describe themselves that way I would simply think, you are a prized Tw@t, good bye.

The only area I would permit its use is in sport where there is a clear distinction between an amateur and professional e.g. in Horse Racing.

Otherwise. they are a builder, plumber or a part time taxi driver etc.

You need to tell whoever they are that they are just a trader or a part time trader and to get over themselves.
User avatar
jimibt
Posts: 3641
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:42 pm
Location: Narnia

PDC wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:07 am
... You need to tell whoever they are that they are just a trader or a part time trader and to get over themselves.
obviuosly tell them in a *professional* manner :D
Post Reply

Return to “General discussion”