A suitable language to build a bot for a complete beginner?

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ShaunWhite
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PeterLe wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:34 pm
firlandsfarm wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:04 pm
PeterLe wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:33 am
If you are new to coding, there are some great courses on UDEMY, for around £15 - £20
Thanks for mentioning that Peter, never come across that website before, it looks to be a huge depository of information
No probs; glad it was of use
By the way; DONT pay the full price, there are loads of codes around for discounts on Udemy, you shouldn't pay more than say £20...
Thanks
Peter
I'd give big thumbs up to Udemy aswell. Nice curated and quality checked. A little structured learning is so much more productive than just randomly picking up things. Do a couple of hours a day and you'll soon be doing some really quite useful stuff, I don't know why everyone doesn't do it.
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johnsheppard
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firlandsfarm wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:05 am
Shaun/John, are you suggesting it would take one person at least 6 months, full time, to design, write and debug the code for a bot? I find that amazing. I'm not saying I disagree, I have no idea what would be involved but … wow!
Honestly, its really hard to say. That's what I guetimate....I can say with 99% certainty than anything software engineering related will 100% of the time get underestimated by inexperienced people. I can also say with probably the same degree of certainty that experienced people will underestimate also. There are just way too many unknowns... It's inevitable that you make mistakes....its really easy not to plan time for that...

I can tell you from my experience. It took me about 1 month full time to grasp 80% of the betfair API and get it up and working using C# APING code....just to place orders, and monitor markets....really really basic stuff...nothing that will make anyone any money... (I have not made any yet :))... to make that code into a robust, fault resistant useful bot....is a whole lot more.... But yeah, I dont claim to be an expert, just I have poked my finger at it and made quiet a few mistakes...that's all...maybe someone that doesnt make as many mistakes as me might be quicker :)
firlandsfarm wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:05 am
BA is a very good product and I would put it in the top 2 of the ones I have looked at but I think the market is wanting a bot builder along the lines of the various web builders (e.g. Wix) and financial market builders (e.g. MetaTrader).
I've run out of time right now...but I will return to discuss this later...
pythonic
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johnsheppard wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:33 am

Honestly, its really hard to say. That's what I guetimate....I can say with 99% certainty than anything software engineering related will 100% of the time get underestimated by inexperienced people. I can also say with probably the same degree of certainty that experienced people will underestimate also. There are just way too many unknowns... It's inevitable that you make mistakes....its really easy not to plan time for that...
That is a good point indeed.
When I started programming many years ago and later started to write my first real world applications I wasted a LOT of time reinventing the wheel and that is a typical beginners error.
They also tend to underestimate the time and efford it takes to get 'small and simple' things right and bug-free.
Simple strategies like 'bet on A at time t when conditions X and Y are met' would surely be much easier to implement with BA or other software than by building your own bot from scratch, especially without any programming experience.
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ShaunWhite
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firlandsfarm wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:05 am
Shaun/John, are you suggesting it would take one person at least 6 months, full time, to design, write and debug the code for a bot? I find that amazing. I'm not saying I disagree, I have no idea what would be involved but … wow!
More if they have to learn how to program first. And then with zero experience the design will be flawed, and code would be as buggy as hell. The simple way would also result in an exe that's pretty much just doing the one job, to create something that's a good framwork for improving easily to accomodate other strategies would require foresight and experience. If it were easy then why do quality designers and coders, who also understand the specific industry earn 5 - 600+ a day? Plus 'you' might be hopeless at it and simply not have the right type of brain for being hyper analytical.

I'd put writing a decent little system on par with making a basic gearbox, all sounds easy, 1 input, 1 output and a bunch of cogs on shafts inbetween, doable. But you need to learn a CAD system, master your CNC tooling, learn to weld, learn to make castings, re-invent what's already been discovered....and then you realise you've missed out a 3rd gear and have to start again. And that's all with stuff you can see and touch, not a bunch of electromagnetism with hidden 'features' all explained via a correspondance course (forums & yt). If you're the type of guy who likes making stuff then it's worth a try, but if your problem solving skills extend to changing a light bulb, forget it.

Incidentally, what features does this 'bot' need that can't be done either with BA, or by building an interface to BA (via the excel DDE) and letting BA do all the messy stuff like order placement, position keeping, monitoring etc etc? My first foray into my own trading stuff (after 30yrs of being in IT anyway) used BA as the transaction processing engine, and that worked reasonably well until it's limitations meant taking it out of the loop at a later stage. That said I still use it to monitor what's going on. BA's openness (data out, trades in) is a fantastic asset, don't just discount it and throw the baby out with the bathwater.
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firlandsfarm
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ShaunWhite wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:29 pm
Incidentally, what features does this 'bot' need that can't be done either with BA, or by building an interface to BA
I have no idea but it will be something similar to what some people said what will this Wordpress thing have that you can't do with Frontpage. I was simply referring to what the future may hold. As more and more become involved in 'botting' the products will get better and better until someone says … "Hey I got it, we need to build a framework structure like that Wordpress thing where people can drop modules in and link them together to make a custom bot."

It will have database modules where you subscribe to a module that allows you to do the research you want be it sports results or price history. It will have modules for each exchange and whatever each bookmaker has evolved into to facilitate placing bets across the whole market. It will have modules to analyse your betting/trading performance and help you identify where you could improve probably with machine learning functions. The biggest thing is, like Wordpress, it will be designed specifically for plug-in modules and like Wordpress 3rd parties could design and sell their own modules … tipsters would have plug-ins that administer their selections for you and some might get a module that automatically places the bets from the tipster plug-in to the Market Bet Placement module. it won't be tomorrow, it won't be next year, it may not be in the little that's left of my lifetime but it will be the future at some point. There is lots that will be done in the future, the industry is young but when it matures …..
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johnsheppard
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firlandsfarm wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:40 pm
It will have database modules where you subscribe to a module that allows you to do the research you want be it sports results or price history. It will have modules for each exchange and whatever each bookmaker has evolved into to facilitate placing bets across the whole market. It will have modules to analyse your betting/trading performance and help you identify where you could improve probably with machine learning functions. The biggest thing is, like Wordpress, it will be designed specifically for plug-in modules and like Wordpress 3rd parties could design and sell their own modules … tipsters would have plug-ins that administer their selections for you and some might get a module that automatically places the bets from the tipster plug-in to the Market Bet Placement module. it won't be tomorrow, it won't be next year, it may not be in the little that's left of my lifetime but it will be the future at some point. There is lots that will be done in the future, the industry is young but when it matures …..
I dont think you can commoditise bots. Once an edge is public its no longer an edge, hence unprofitable, and unsellable.
You can commoditise bot making tools. But while their application is more profitable than selling. They won't be sold. I would presume there are hundreds of people out there with the workings done bespoke.
I'm not knowledgable about the workings of markets (I spent my time at computing science instead, dang it)...but I would probably suggest one would want to learn that stuff before diving in to develop. That task in itself is complex and long. But necessary if you dont want to end up in a world of pain in 3 or 5 years (unless you have the knack for cutting balls and chain)...

I'm still learning about betangel as I just use the trader version at the moment, but seems to me the pro version and guardian and excel etc does much. The less bespoke code you can write the better...because bespoke code is expensive.... you can ask the market about that and it will tell you...(market presumably knows more than any individual)
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firlandsfarm
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johnsheppard wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:03 am
I dont think you can commoditise bots. Once an edge is public its no longer an edge, hence unprofitable, and unsellable.
Fully agree John, I wasn't referring to individual bots but bot creators such as BA and others, tipsters who currently give out their tips via websites and emails, bookies so you didn't have to keep changing websites, tipster reviewers who are all over the Internet, odds monitors, data providers, blogs and columnists … the list of support facilities for punters goes on and on but the punter has to find them. Look at the way the financial markets have developed frameworks such as Metatrader that facilitates accessing accounts at multiple marketmakers, enables data from different sources on different securities etc. … I'm thinking along those lines. At the moment we search the Internet for data and other services. I was suggesting that in the future all of this fragmentation will be centralised inside a framework with common connectivity standards and protocols. The principle of "the Internet of things" will not just apply to fridges and car convoys. It will bring all fragmented sectors and suppliers together by way of centralised frameworks similar to the way Wordpress did for websites, eBay and Amazon have done for small online outlets and Oddschecker is trying to do for bookies and exchanges. Before Wordpress website designers had to go looking for add-ins but since Wordpress the Add-ins know the designers will be at Wordpress so they go thereto find them.
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johnsheppard
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firlandsfarm wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:24 am
johnsheppard wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:03 am
I dont think you can commoditise bots. Once an edge is public its no longer an edge, hence unprofitable, and unsellable.
Fully agree John, I wasn't referring to individual bots but bot creators such as BA and others, tipsters who currently give out their tips via websites and emails, bookies so you didn't have to keep changing websites, tipster reviewers who are all over the Internet, odds monitors, data providers, blogs and columnists … the list of support facilities for punters goes on and on but the punter has to find them. Look at the way the financial markets have developed frameworks such as Metatrader that facilitates accessing accounts at multiple marketmakers, enables data from different sources on different securities etc. … I'm thinking along those lines. At the moment we search the Internet for data and other services. I was suggesting that in the future all of this fragmentation will be centralised inside a framework with common connectivity standards and protocols. The principle of "the Internet of things" will not just apply to fridges and car convoys. It will bring all fragmented sectors and suppliers together by way of centralised frameworks similar to the way Wordpress did for websites, eBay and Amazon have done for small online outlets and Oddschecker is trying to do for bookies and exchanges. Before Wordpress website designers had to go looking for add-ins but since Wordpress the Add-ins know the designers will be at Wordpress so they go thereto find them.
ahh ic... Well, I can say I am not experienced enough to comment on the likelyhood of that occuring.

My experience with the CMS world (which is not extensive) is that in complex instances its cheaper to develop bespoke (a successful trading bot app that can scale is complex). Wordpress' market is low budget and no room for customization. Jam it all together bobs ur uncle sort of thing. Not really sure that works for botting...

I would be inclined to think that you would suffer the same problem with commoditising tipsters. Imagine for example there was a succesfully central tipping site with api where every tipster on earth put their tips. The edge would be quickly eroded. I also suspect successful (or perhaps professional) tipsters have a vested interest in not using centralised frameworks but I havent thought that through fully :)

As an aside, In the begining when I started out with betfair's api, I was also experimenting with scraping tipster sites etc.....In terms of scraping websites it's not all that difficult to do it's just that websites change...and crossmatching runners etc is not always easy...
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firlandsfarm
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johnsheppard wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:13 am
ahh ic... Well, I can say I am not experienced enough to comment on the likelyhood of that occuring.
Neither can I John I was just speculating on what could be.
johnsheppard wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:13 am
My experience with the CMS world (which is not extensive) is that in complex instances its cheaper to develop bespoke (a successful trading bot app that can scale is complex). Wordpress' market is low budget and no room for customization. Jam it all together bobs ur uncle sort of thing. Not really sure that works for botting...

I would be inclined to think that you would suffer the same problem with commoditising tipsters. Imagine for example there was a succesfully central tipping site with api where every tipster on earth put their tips. The edge would be quickly eroded. I also suspect successful (or perhaps professional) tipsters have a vested interest in not using centralised frameworks but I havent thought that through fully :)

As an aside, In the begining when I started out with betfair's api, I was also experimenting with scraping tipster sites etc.....In terms of scraping websites it's not all that difficult to do it's just that websites change...and crossmatching runners etc is not always easy...
John, I think you are still missing my point. I'm certainly not referring to the market for people like you who can build their own bot. I am looking at how the market for serious, semi computer savvy people made up of the thousands like myself and many others on the BA forum and other websites might mature to in say 10 years or so as computing cost come down and users become more accustomed to facilities and services becoming more integrated.

I'm not looking at bespoke builders. I'm not suggesting tipsters would make tips available to all and so dilute their edge. I'm not looking at traders though if they are currently trading on BA I see no reason why they shouldn't continue on what might be a BA type module. I'm looking at the current 'popular' market … I'm just saying that market could bring all it's sub-markets together within a common framework so that the various modules can interlink and cross communicate. A common marketplace, not common products.

I wasn't referring to Wordpress for quality of product, just for representation of how something might work with plug-ins. (And a debate on the Wordpress market is a debate for another day. :) )
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ShaunWhite
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The big cost is making it robust enough for public use, look how much people struggle with Guardian and that's pretty straight forward. And let's say it earns you 10k a month in subs, wouldn't all that time and effort be better spent finding another 10k/mo strategy rather than dealing with customers 247?

And also the issue that any system that was specifically designed to retain data would breach just about everyone's ts&cs. Millisecond horse data from BF is 200quid a month, tread on those toes at your peril.

Even BA just breaks even by all accounts, building an even more specialised complex system from the ground up (2 man yrs+) and supporting it, incl updates for all these different apis would need a huge customer base and subs before you saw a dollar in profit. Trading as been around for 20yrs, I don't know where that boom in numbers would come from. "I'm out" :)
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ShaunWhite
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I've always wondered why BF haven't adapted Tradefair to work on the exchange. It's certainly over half way there and with a redesigned interface and a few more features it would become the goto platform.

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firlandsfarm
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ShaunWhite wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:22 pm
The big cost …
Those are fair points Shaun but they are based on today's knowledge … I was trying to put forward a tomorrow view. First we had the growth in betting now we are going through a trading expansion. Betting won't stop there, there will be more growth elsewhere. Where? I don't know. I wasn't thinking of one person developing the industry, maybe a 'big boy' will look at it one day and say "here's an opportunity, nobody has yet developed a monopoly set-up in this industry". One thing the Internet has brought to society (commercial and personal) is monopolies (they call it critical mass). There is no critical mass in this industry yet but it's slowing moving there as bookmakers merge and services are developed, all it takes is for a standard protocol to be adopted by a few and if it proves advantageous others will gradually jump on.
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firlandsfarm
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ShaunWhite wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:25 pm
I've always wondered why BF haven't adapted Tradefair to work on the exchange. It's certainly over half way there and with a redesigned interface and a few more features it would become the goto platform.
Wellcome aboard the journey into the possible future! :)
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johnsheppard
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I think in the context of this thread...

There's a lot of risk involved in choosing technology or language or anything..... It's easy to forget that taking risks demands a larger pay off when you're plotting out the fun bits of building a system...

But then...theres that vs analysis paralaysis I guess...lol..

I mean, say for example that James Butler guy that wrote Betfair Trading Techniques...he's using winforms and VB.Net ...I would presume his sunk costs are covered by now...but...you wouldnt find too many people choosing that tech right now...because things change...
LinusP
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johnsheppard wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:03 am
I mean, say for example that James Butler guy that wrote Betfair Trading Techniques...he's using winforms and VB.Net ...I would presume his sunk costs are covered by now...but...you wouldnt find too many people choosing that tech right now...because things change...
He doesn't trade/bet anymore, even implied he may have never made any money.
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