Why do I keep going inplay?

The sport of kings.
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whimsies
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Location: Uk

I have a little green/red bot that I apply to all races which helps me as I am a terrible time keeper and get to focused on the ladder then bang its in play. Please feel free to download and apply to your days racing, fires 6 seconds before the start.
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trb10
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:26 am

Thank you for the advice everyone, it's nice to see a thread where people aren't being all judgemental and unhelpful. I'm taking a few days off to take stock and see where I want to go with this.
49ers
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:35 pm

Some really excellent advice here. I also started out just as you did (going in-play) and it seems like it's a rite of passage for many a trader that sticks with it and makes it through to the other side to become profitable. I couldn't admit to myself that I had got my analysis wrong and found it painful to take any sort of loss hence going in-play to disasterous consequences.

The thing that turned it around for me was reading a book called "Trading in the Zone" by Mark Douglas. He talks about operating your trading strategies like a casino, this basically means always execute against your edge if it presents itself, define and be able to accept a specified loss if the trade goes against before entering a trade (remember the market is like a force of nature and does what it wants and we have to fit around this). Then based on what's happening in the market as the trade matures have points at which you anticiplate taking profits out. Exiting trades becomes more intuative the more experience you get in the markets.

By trading this way it allows you to stay relaxed, focused and in control and know that losses are inevitable but overall the wins will outweigh the losses and you will begin to see a steady upward equity curve (the house always win style).
jamesg46
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to75ne wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:17 am
jamesg46 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:17 pm
to75ne wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:09 pm
everything Shaun as said is true but you need to consider this. You may not have the required wiring in your brain for trading horse racing (probably greyhounds too). you may not be cut out for it.

if you really have lost thousands of pounds trying to crack horse racing then the evidence would seem to be overwhelming that you are not cut out for it.

its a not a dig by the way, you need to stop trading horse racing , if you cant then get help because your probably lose er lot more if you carry on.
While I think you have a point about the correct wiring of the brain, I don't believe that anyone should just call it a day, especially if they're reaching out for some advice. I think the OP should switch to practice mode for a while and think very hard about what you have mentioned here about the wiring of the brain.
“Maybe I should just give up.......” yes he was reaching out for advice, and I advised

Switching to practice mode will teach him nothing of use as he has an emotional problem. Practice mode is good for learning the mechanics of trading (so to speak) but useless for an emotional problem – taking a loss.

Practice mode is not real, it takes the emotional element of trading away, hence no good for emotional problems.


“blah blah blah but still I lay a horse in the hope of easy money and I end up bust, we're talking 10k here”

When do you think he should realise he is a useless manual horse racing trader? and when would you advise him to knock it on the head? when he is down 15 large, 20 large, 30 large or higher?


If you cant cut out and take a hit and move on, no matter how many books, and utube vids, words of encouragement on threads like this (no doubt meant with all good intentions ), what some financial market guru spouts, someones data base of 2000 races and associated xcel sheets state and so on, you will fail if you cant take a loss, its that simple.

in short he cant like so many others adequately control his emotions, and that is why he ( and others) cant effectively trade.
Maybe I've got it totally wrong but when I was doing the same thing, I was doing it out of frustration, my frustration I believe came from lack of structure... going into practice mode can give somebody the time required to put together a necessary plan of action without the need for the emotion of trading with real money. Once or if anyone in that situation has put together a solid plan of action and has paper traded it enough times, going through a sequence of wins and losses in a detailed manner then it proves not only thats its possible but also that they have a methodical approach that works (assuming they find one). If they cant take that systematic approach over to the live markets without deviating then I would suggest walking away. The reason I thought it was down to this persons approach was because they mentioned that they followed some system "down to the letter" in the casino land and could easily walk away without the need for one more spin.

I wouldn't suggest anyone to go on and lose 20 or 30k, I had a difference of opinion to you and thought it might be worth talking about. Who knows, you could be completely right but sharing some thoughts, especially when it won't cost a thing to either think about or try cant hurt anybody.
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to75ne
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jamesg46 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:46 pm


I wouldn't suggest anyone to go on and lose 20 or 30k, I had a difference of opinion to you and thought it might be worth talking about. Who knows, you could be completely right but sharing some thoughts, especially when it won't cost a thing to either think about or try cant hurt anybody.
surely it is incumbent on everyone who posts on these forums not to encourage anybody intentionally or otherwise to get into serious debt, or further serious debt, especially when the evidence strongly suggests that they are not capable of trading effectively.

we all need to be careful of what we say to people who are obviously not cut out for this game.


once again his problem is emotional and no amount of practice mode will help with an emotional problem.
jamesg46
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to75ne wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:30 pm
jamesg46 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:46 pm


I wouldn't suggest anyone to go on and lose 20 or 30k, I had a difference of opinion to you and thought it might be worth talking about. Who knows, you could be completely right but sharing some thoughts, especially when it won't cost a thing to either think about or try cant hurt anybody.
surely it is incumbent on everyone who posts on these forums not to encourage anybody intentionally or otherwise to get into serious debt, or further serious debt, especially when the evidence strongly suggests that they are not capable of trading effectively.

we all need to be careful of what we say to people who are obviously not cut out for this game.


once again his problem is emotional and no amount of practice mode will help with an emotional problem.
Are you serious? I didn't encourage anything other than practice mode and structure, one being free and the other being thought.

To just conclude that emotion cant be overcome, simply just because emotional people aren't capable isn't for me... many people have come through and managed to overcome their emotions. Maybe this is an area to explore for this person, I don't know, but with your psychological assessment, the person is already done and dusted. Maybe the standard reply should just be just to give up.
eightbo
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Location: Malta / Australia

trb10 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:29 pm
I have literally lost thousands of pounds trying to crack pre race trading. I see a red, think oh I'll take it in play and catch up and BOOM the horse wins. I've done it more times than I care to remember so I know the likelihood I'll bust out but still I do it and I don't get why. I've thought and thought about it but still I lay a horse in the hope of easy money and I end up bust, we're talking 10k here.

I did casino while racing was off and joined a site to learn that and literally stick to the instructions by the letter. I could be £20 on an offer but I can walk away from that quite easily and have never once done "just another spin" and have earned over 2k since March. So I have the mindset for that so don't understand why I don't with racing.

Maybe I should just give up.......
hi bro. used to happen to me a lot. solution for me was a 2-step action plan:
1. identifying my risk tolerance (pain threshold) through journalling — this is the level where emotional interference kicks in and you are no longer able to take the loss. For me that was somewhere around 2-3% of my capital, however you may have a certain -£x amount as well. Depends on psychological makeup
2. habitualising using lower stakes so that I would not trigger that emotional interference. I'm risking 0-1% of my capital per market now which stays comfortably within my risk tolerance and allows for some slippage.

I also later found that I had a % daily drawdown risk tolerance and so like with the staking I identified + habitualised ceasing trading when I'd lost -y% of my core capital on the day, again with some headroom for mistakes or a rough spike against me.

ultimately this behaviour signals that you are likely too attached to outcome so you want to work on divorcing yourself from P&L where you can.
I heard of a guy called John "rambo" moulton which a few oldies may remember from the Bulls and Bears Sydney futures exchange documentary. The guy daytrades and only checks his statements 12 times a year now and has also gone a stretch of 9 months not checking P&L and he mentions this in another interview in reference to divorcing yourself from P&L so you can focus on what the market is doing properly. I check P&L once at the end of each week right now so after about half way through Monday I've already lost track of where I am and there's literally no information available for my brain to worry about the P&L — only the intramarket P&L hedge figure which I've made sure is within my risk tolerance so I'm able to crystallise the loss each time knowing its just a drop in the bucket @ 0-1% risk. I have found that has also helped in accepting losses because I'm forced to think of the 1week picture now rather than the daily. John is a classic overtrader and still has to keep it in check today even with P&L hid and pushing millions in size.

Ultimately you want to really understand and BELIEVE that safely progressing your equity over time is better than the alternative of pushing around the bigger size that you feel inclined to use which creates faster progress but it is an ILLUSION because that is temporary given you are risking situations like you mention (unable to hedge loss → freeze → IP → unacceptably and unintentional big hit to capital).

Remember that losses are necessary expenses of doing business (without risking something we can't generate a profit) so as such they are unavoidable. Your task as a trader is to find a way of operating such that you're able to consistently manage all your expenses so that any edge you have is allowed to play out to it's full potential without emotional interference (you will never succeed long-term if you keep getting in your own way)

best of luck mate
eightbo
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Location: Malta / Australia

ShaunWhite wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:39 pm
I think a big issue is that people want to be the next Peter without realising there's a whole world of trading outside of trading the favourite on pre-race horse market (I know he does way more than that, but that's what people latch onto because he makes it look so effortless) I found success as soon as I stopped doing what he does. The fav on pre race horses must be the toughest most competitive market there is, it's like the yellow snow of the trading world.
peter started out being extremely risk averse and afraid to take trades so imo his insights are not all that valuable for the overly aggressively inclined such as myself. i suggest to others to find alternative sources of information especially pertaining to psychology if they are looking for that sort of thing and know they lean towards the aggressive side of the spectrum
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to75ne
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jamesg46 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:48 pm
to75ne wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:30 pm
jamesg46 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:46 pm


I wouldn't suggest anyone to go on and lose 20 or 30k, I had a difference of opinion to you and thought it might be worth talking about. Who knows, you could be completely right but sharing some thoughts, especially when it won't cost a thing to either think about or try cant hurt anybody.
surely it is incumbent on everyone who posts on these forums not to encourage anybody intentionally or otherwise to get into serious debt, or further serious debt, especially when the evidence strongly suggests that they are not capable of trading effectively.

we all need to be careful of what we say to people who are obviously not cut out for this game.


once again his problem is emotional and no amount of practice mode will help with an emotional problem.
Are you serious? I didn't encourage anything other than practice mode and structure, one being free and the other being thought.

To just conclude that emotion cant be overcome, simply just because emotional people aren't capable isn't for me... many people have come through and managed to overcome their emotions. Maybe this is an area to explore for this person, I don't know, but with your psychological assessment, the person is already done and dusted. Maybe the standard reply should just be just to give up.
i dont mean emotion or emotional problem as in touchy-feely, in touch with your female side, disgust, affection, temper tantrums, caring and sharing bollocks, i mean as part of your basic make up, part of your instincts, laid down by millions of years of evolution that were responsible for keeping you alive for millions of years. deeply in-bedded in your unconscious brian.

they worked perfectly well when we needed to protect our lives and assets (food, shelter, water) from sabre tooth tigers and other tribes of humans, but in the modern world can be a hindrance as in trading amongst other things.
jamesg46
Posts: 3769
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:05 pm

to75ne wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:03 pm
jamesg46 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:48 pm
to75ne wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:30 pm


surely it is incumbent on everyone who posts on these forums not to encourage anybody intentionally or otherwise to get into serious debt, or further serious debt, especially when the evidence strongly suggests that they are not capable of trading effectively.

we all need to be careful of what we say to people who are obviously not cut out for this game.


once again his problem is emotional and no amount of practice mode will help with an emotional problem.
Are you serious? I didn't encourage anything other than practice mode and structure, one being free and the other being thought.

To just conclude that emotion cant be overcome, simply just because emotional people aren't capable isn't for me... many people have come through and managed to overcome their emotions. Maybe this is an area to explore for this person, I don't know, but with your psychological assessment, the person is already done and dusted. Maybe the standard reply should just be just to give up.
i dont mean emotion or emotional problem as in touchy-feely, in touch with your female side, disgust, affection, temper tantrums, caring and sharing bollocks, i mean as part of your basic make up, part of your instincts, laid down by millions of years of evolution that were responsible for keeping you alive for millions of years. deeply in-bedded in your unconscious brian.

they worked perfectly well when we needed to protect our lives and assets (food, shelter, water) from sabre tooth tigers and other tribes of humans, but in the modern world can be a hindrance as in trading amongst other things.
And yet there is people who are very succesful and overcome this through understanding.

Anyway, all the best to the OP, we have both offered an opinion and some food for thought, as have others & I hope they go away finding something of use.
eightbo
Posts: 2154
Joined: Sun May 17, 2015 8:19 pm
Location: Malta / Australia

also this might help you
i forgot to mention i went through a transition phase after knowing what to do and why, when i was still training skills (habits) of taking all losses tight and keeping staking size to 0-1% risk of capital, i would still make mistakes leading to occasional big red numbers pre-race which imo is the precursor to going in play unintentionally. But if you can get it through your head that although hedging that big loss pre-race is extremely dicomforting, it's the lesser of two evils when compared to risking a blowup. Sort of like if you're driving along in an armored vehicle through a warzone with militants on both sides, you see they've got an rpg on the left side but there kind of far away, whereas on the right side you can tell those guys only have guns and grenades but they're much closer. So clearly the play is to take the guaranteed nade and bullets rather than risk dying to the RPG.

The problem in trading is that when you blow up, you can reload your account and people psychologically view that as a fresh start when really it's not a fresh start, what you are doing is not working, and if you continue to make decisions in the same way (or behave in a way that leads to amygdala hijack and having the oldschool part of the brain make decisions for you), you're always gonna take another RPG...

If you decide to keep at it, I would strongly suggest coming back with a "one life" perspective and begin making decisions catered around the concept of survival first and foremost until you have that on lock. If your journey pans out anything like mine you'll find yourself having to eat a lot of grenades along the way as you work on improving your edge but so long as you continue to dodge the rocket that buys you time to continue adjusting until you get it right. Get it right on smaller size first then when you have a track record of performing, bump up your size, create another track record etc. etc. and loop that process. This approach helps on a lot of levels particularly with confidence in your ability (progressive momentum) as well as NOT having that psychological setback which comes with blowing up the account (that's those "Maybe I should just give up..." thoughts like you have in your 1st post). I found that self-doubt or any other self-defeating thoughts in the back of your mind during your next few trading sessions after a blowup can create a sort of reverb effect in your mental space and if you couple that with a high-pressure enviornment (find yourself facing another big loss) that can greatly reduce the probability you will be able to hedge that loss. Compare that with naturally occurring POSITIVE thoughts off the back of a proven track record and suddenly doing the right thing is not so hard anymore. Need to cultivate that awareness of what's going on in your mental space and look after it as much as possible because your ability to perform can be toxically polluted or substantially benefited by what's going on there. You just have to look at high-level performance in sports to know what I'm talking about.
Korattt
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Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:46 pm

OP,

With respect I feel that your struggling with reading what happens leading up to the off in a particular market, I’m guessing that you’re guessing what will happen without relying on any particular indicator.

With me I use certain charting settings within Bet Angel to identify XYZ & then I wait for something to appear, only through recording HOURS & HOURS of markets have I been able to configure settings that I’m able to understand in my own way which help me out with reading certain situations in markets, even then it doesn’t conform to every market, only certain ones.. it gives me a little window of opportunity, and if I see it I jump on it, have a read on PW’s take on prospect theory, that helped me out anyway.

What I’m trying to say is use the software, really use it, try things, be curious, you’ll never know what you may find which could & should help you out..

GL
Emmson
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Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:47 pm

Read some thoughts from JollyGreen

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8319&p=81034#p81034
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alexmr2
Posts: 766
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:32 am

We've all been there and burned. You have to tell yourself that you will never make money by taking trades inplay. To sort yourself out I suggest not using more than £100 live bank until you can start to build it up from there up. You shouldn't be risking more than a few quid per trade max. Expect to lose your bank or a chunk of it at least 100 times before you turn your trading around
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