Picture delay

The sport of kings.
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mugsgame
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Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:41 pm

just to give you guys the heads up. The Betdaq video is 6 seconds ahead of my ATR feed - go figure
PeterLe
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Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:19 pm

Is there anypoint having subscription channels do you think?
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mugsgame
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It's hit and miss with Bdq, one day last week they were 20secs behind.
If I didn't have to tv, I reckon I could still work with the video.

The last race at Taunton went in play just as the ads were finishing. For someone like me who actually trades sometimes using what I can see this aids me greatly.

You can't trade a horse who is running around the paddock with 36" of meat swinging around while there is an advert for Wonga.
PeterLe
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Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:19 pm

mugsgame wrote:It's hit and miss with Bdq, one day last week they were 20secs behind.
If I didn't have to tv, I reckon I could still work with the video.

The last race at Taunton went in play just as the ads were finishing. For someone like me who actually trades sometimes using what I can see this aids me greatly.

You can't trade a horse who is running around the paddock with 36" of meat swinging around while there is an advert for Wonga.
:D You've a way with words; thats for sure Steve! I get the picture (no pun intended!) Thanks
dogform
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Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:27 pm

I am not sure if the picture delay is more relevant to players watching the race looking for an In/Out type of trade based on what they see from the pictures? Traders using the ladder/market activity looking for entry/exit points based on market movements might not be at such a disadvantage?

With the fast raw SIS feeds being readily available to those with the inclination to source them, "In Play" players have every opportunity to maximise picture speed and picture quality should they feel the cost is justifiable.
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mugsgame
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The picture delay isn't so much of an issue pre race trading. But you always expect there to be a advantage watching Tv over an internet feed. Just wanted to bring everyone's attention to it.
dogform
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Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:27 pm

mugsgame wrote:The picture delay isn't so much of an issue pre race trading. But you always expect there to be a advantage watching Tv over an internet feed. Just wanted to bring everyone's attention to it.
If the processes involved in the transmission of the pictures are looked at closely, it is not surprising that the pictures from an internet feed are ahead of bookmaker/consumer satellite pictures.

If the internet feed is being uploaded to a web streaming server direct from the track (1 uplink/1 downlink) then a user viewing the picture in a player such as Betfair/Betdaq "Live" Video should theoretically have around 2.5 seconds delay behind true live on course.

If the TV picture is from a Sky UK channel or from bookmakers SIS then the theoretical delay should be longer as there are more "hops" in the process (2 uplinks/2 downlinks) and further delay introduced by passing the pictures through video processors and encoders to encrypt the pictures.

These relative delays are what is actually experienced by the end user, the Betfair/Betdaq "Live" Video pictures via the web streaming server are ahead of the pictures available from bookmakers SIS and from the Sky UK racing channels (RUK & ATR).

With ATR tracks there is additional deliberate delay introduced by the broadcaster to be sure the pictures are well behind bookmakers SIS ( 4 sec +). With RUK tracks the pictures available from the Sky UK satellite channel and the Betfair/Betdaq "Live" player are almost identical speed on days when the "Live" players are working correctly.

The raw SIS satellite feeds are ahead of all the above types of picture but they are still behind the residents in the corporate boxes on course.
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JollyGreen
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I agree with Dogform, I have received some good technical help from him. I think the ATR people probably use cheaper CODEC hardware, as mentioned this adds a delay.
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mugsgame
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The fastest tool is the one between your ears - Right Dave?
Flock
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Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:19 am

Is it possible to get a service directly from the track and not via the bookmakers :?:
dogform
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Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:27 pm

Flock,

There are several options to get a service directly from the track.


1. The Perform Group (Progressive Sports Media) have an online "Watch and Trade" subscription service costing around £6000 per month. This gives the subscriber 4 or 5 logins (not sure if it is 4 or 5) and is intended for small syndicates. Each syndicate member would pay 1/4 or 1/5 of the £6000 monthly fee and would have a login to the online video player. The minimum term for the subscription is one year and it is a legally binding contract as far as I am aware. The Perform Group were also known as "Cobain" and the "Watch and Trade" service covers quite a few sports in addition to horse racing that "Cobain" used to provide.

2. Send a colleague to the track with an iPhone and "face time" the racing to an off track colleague. I think it likely that if track officials spotted someone doing this they would probably be ejected from the course.

3. Use the encrypted raw satellite feeds that are uplinked directly from the track. This requires decent quality satellite equipment and daily access to the unscrambling codes.


There might be other options, the above are only the ones I can think of.
tweebie1999
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:23 am

A couple of years ago I looked into in running trading and came to the conclusion it is only really possible to do it well by being at the course with a phone. TV delays are too long.

I got Betangel working on my iphone via their vpi and set off for sunny Doncaster. I sat in the stand and layed horses coming down the home straight and made quite a few quid. Then I went to Ripon, Thirsk, Catterick, Redcar, Beverley and Southwell. Guess what? No decent signal. In fact at Soutwell there was no signal at all on the net. So that was the end of that.

My next thought was to get a partner to sit on the end of the phone and me issue instructions via an ear piece. There are loads of people doing this at each race meeting and they don't seem to get challenged. I couldn't however find a reliable partner i.e someone who has time to sit at the computer in the afternoon everday.

In the end I decided to wait until 4G comes out over the whole country. I talked to a guy who works for O2 and he told me they are working with Vodaphone to cover the whole country with a blanket 4g signal. Should be out in 2016. If this transpires I will be back at the races with the iphone or ipad and Betangel.
Flock
Posts: 27
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:19 am

Thanks very much

I just had a look at Perform but couldnt find the packages. Do you have a link.
dogform
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:27 pm

Flock wrote:Thanks very much

I just had a look at Perform but couldnt find the packages. Do you have a link.
http://www.performgroup.co.uk/WhiteLabelChannels

Scroll down the page to the "Watch and Trade" service. It is £6000 per month for 4 or 5 logins, minimum term of 1 year.
Flock
Posts: 27
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:19 am

and if the artificial ATR delay was reduced they would not be able to do this!
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