Bet Angel for newbies / Getting started : Appears simple but is devilishly difficult.

We were all new to Bet Angel once. Ask any question you like here and fellow forum members promise not to laugh. Betfair trading made simple.
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Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:16 pm

Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:29 pm

Hello all,

Just thought I'd put my last 12 months of torment into words for anyone who is going through this or has been through this.

I have been trading for a about a year and have really struggled to control my personal discipline when trading. Despite repeated warnings from posters on here, I have let trades go in play time and time again and whilst sometimes I feel I've cracked it because I got with it, the crash always comes and I blow another bank.

I understand that if I carry on trading this way, I will lose everything and never make it so after blowing £500 on a football bet in June to chase money I'd lost on trading (yes I'm embarrassed to admit some of the stupid things I've done) I took 3 months off from trading to sort my head out.

I don't have a gambling problem but went on the gamblers anonymous website to help with sorting my head out and my mental thought processes about trading are not far short of actual problem gamblers. There in lies my problem, I confuse trading with gambling and as long as this mindset remains, I will never win.

I printed off a load of papers from GA and cut out the quotes or statements that I know are relevant to me. I then stuck them in a a4 folder and most nights now when I go to bed, I read the folder. It only takes a few minutes but keeps me mentally right and focused on not going down that road.

As of 1st Sep, I have been trading again with a bank of £100. I have forecast a 1% increase per day and can see that it takes about 70 days to double the bank, that is my short term objective. If I win 20p per day, I am going to double that bank however long it takes because I am going to succeed at this.

My other half tells me I won't do it and can't do it, my previous trading suggests that I won't do it and my general character (fighting greed, emotion, anger) all suggest I can't do it and that's right, I won't succeed if I don't change my outlook on it.

I am encouraged by my new results because after losing £8 on Monday which was because I let a trade go to far. Rather than going in play or increasing stakes to chase money, I started the next day totally calm, trading out and taking reds when they occurred.
Yesterday felt like a total nightmare, I had lost on what felt like loads of trades and when I imported my results to XL, I had lost £0.44 all day. I went home chuffed to bits because even though I'd lost, I didn't chase it and it didn't even cross my mind to be honest. So far I've won £5.22 but have had many losses as I actually won over £5 on Saturday alone.

I'm miles off being a successful trader but I feel that at least I'm on the right path now rather than kidding myself that I know what I'm doing. So my bank is at £105.22 and I'll post on here once in a while with an update so you can see how I'm doing.

I know it's been done to death but seriously to any newbies struggling, take a breather, lower your expectations and remember the first goal is to not lose. If your winning good money (relative to your bank) it is more than likely because you are gambling not trading and if that's the case then the crash will always come. It is not impossible and you can win but have to put the man hours in to get there.

Hopefully I'll be able to back up my trading philosophy with the growth of my £5.22 ;) we'll see.

Anyway keep trying, don't give up but remember winning £1 per day the right way is infinitely better than winning £50 per day chancing your arm.

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Posts: 4508
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:04 pm

Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:43 pm

I suspect you feel much better now for sharing that :D

You're on the right path though - don't be greedy, don't be influenced by massive greens of other traders, just concentrate on your own results and first & foremost make sure you don't lose money - 50p profit is fine.....little acorns etc

I've said this many times on this forum (because it's something I've always had to fight myself) - the line between trading and gambling is thin, and the reasons why traders go bankrupt is invariably because they have crossed that line!
I have also said many times here, that the difference between a successful trader and a struggling one is what they do when faced with a red screen - as you've experienced, and so did I in years gone's the red screen that often makes you cross that dreaded aforementioned line

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Posts: 1963
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:37 pm

Tue Sep 09, 2014 5:52 pm

call it whatever you want, trading is in essence a form of gambling. you can only truly claim to be trading if you have control over your emotions a have a disciplined approach following a plan/strategy/rationale.

if you have a plan/strategy and bad discipline, you are a simply a gambler trying to trade.

not having a dig but "I don't have a gambling problem but went on the gamblers anonymous website to help with sorting my head out and my mental thought processes about trading are not far short of actual problem gamblers"

gamblers anonymous are not well known for their trading advice etc, quite the contrary.

as you state "help with sorting my head out and my mental thought processes", you are in effect gambling (although it is not your intent)and probably not even learning anything worthwhile about trading.

are you sure you are being honest with yourself, the fact that you went a ga site maybe something deep inside you is ringing an alarm bell.

really think knock this on the head for a long time, if you have not got the self discipline then i doubt if you will ever get it, its very hard to learn.

really not having a dig just be careful.

Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:16 pm

Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:42 am

Letiss - thanks for your input and I will be very careful to not cross that gambling line. I have done so for the last 12 months again and again but I have been warned by my missus that this £100 is the last so this has suddenly made me sit up and protect my bank at all costs, not let a red get bigger and bigger and then go in play.

Also whilst I may be million miles behind you at trading, I do have one thing in common with you..............I'm a Saint as well :)When he finds his feet as he's starting to do, Pelle is going to be the business. I should stop spending so much time looking at Saintsweb and spend more time on here trying to learn.

To75ne - I have took your comments on board and yes I'll be careful. GA is just a tool to me to almost frighten me into seeing what I don't want to become.
It may seem mental to you or totally not relevant to trading in anyway but each to their own.

"if you have a plan/strategy and bad discipline, you are a simply a gambler trying to trade". Exactly, that in a nutshell is how I've been going on for the last year and that's why I am trying to lose the gambling mentality.

The results will speak for themselves and on the first of each month, I'll post up my new bank so you can see. Thanks again.

Posts: 2126
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:06 pm

Wed Sep 10, 2014 12:30 pm

Have you also considered it's a lot easier to be sloppy with your approach when there's nothing really at stake with the small sums you're playing for. I know for me I didn't take trading seriously until I had to, when you're earning a few hundred a day working trading for 50p a market just didn't have that worthwhile risk/reward for me to be bothered.

I know some people can bring it down to a academic/challenge but for me until I needed to win to support my lifestyle it was never more than a bit of fun. Bots were always a bigger earner because if they earned 50p it was for nothing whereas, being previously self employed, I always had a value on my hourly rate and it was higher than 50p.

Everyone's different and what works for some just won't work for others with trading and you need to tailor everything to your own mindset. Personally I just can't maintain the concentration and discipline that you definitely need to have any chance if the likely rewards mean nothing to me.

I'd also avoid getting too hung up on this notion of protecting a £100 bank at all costs at this stage of your trading. It's much better to consider that lost and concentrate on finding strategies that work for you. The money management side of things will come along with any working strategies. Trying to protect a bank without a proven working strategy will just be frustrating and doomed to fail.

Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:16 pm

Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:15 pm

Spreadbetting - I wasn't joking when I said this £100 is my last. 50p can mean something to you if your playing with you last £5. I have done the other approach and that is partly the reason why I was so sloppy because I'd just put more money in, I've probably done thousands like that.

Enough is enough, I'm sick and tired of getting no where and losing money - totally my own fault of course but that was then this is now. I feel I have made a quantum leap forward just by taking a £0.60 red and moving on because every time I do that I know that in my previous life I would be piling on more money to get to a green and if that green never came, then go in-play.

Thanks for your input anyway.

Posts: 2126
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:06 pm

Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:02 pm

No problem, maybe being down to that last £100 will be the focusing point you need, as everything now means something and plenty of us do our best work under pressure.

I've just seen so many traders all assuming they've cracked it and are only losing because of poor discipline, whereas that lack of discipline can just as easily end up green and get lumped into 'winning strategy' rather than 'poor discipline'.

Good luck and remember this switchover period of flat to jumps isn't the most reliable period.

Posts: 718
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:54 am

Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:27 pm

Most of us have done the same, it took me about 10 big losses going into play before i stopped, your doing the right thing, start small and if things are going well you can always increase your bank later.

Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:16 pm

Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:05 pm

Hello all,

So just to give a little update......

My first month of trying to trade properly under my belt. Started with £100, up to £105.22 when I last posted on 9th Sep, got it up to £126.57 on the 20th and then in a 2 seconds lost the lot :x
Not my entire bank mind, but all the effort and work over the last 3 weeks gone - my bank is now £104.66.

Been out for the day, wanted to do a little trading if I could to win a quid or two, opening trade went wrong but just for once I gambled it thinking,hoping,preying it will return and it didn't so I got punished for trying to be clever. My own fault.

I initially was so f****** angry I thought I was going to explode. I decided that over the next few days, I'll lay some horses to win that back but then thought to myself, will I ever learn? it was doing this again and again that got me in this mess over the past 12 months all while chasing money. After quite a painful mental debate in my head, I decided that actually I should just write the month off, I've still got my bank and a few quid and I can go again this month.

That was really hard for me to stare at a giant loss (relative to my bank) and not chase it. It was almost as if I could feel the f****** computer pulling me in to do it. But I didn't and I know deep down that until I execute trading with the correct discipline, I'll never win. If I had chased my money and won it back, I would only lose it some other time so it was a case of biting the bullet and dealing with it.

So to conclude, was making progress, got greedy started gambling and lost it. September = write off but I'm still in the game and this month I'll try again, this time without being such a cock.

See ya later....

Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:58 am

Fri Oct 17, 2014 7:33 pm

I agree with everything Lammtarra has written as I am in the same situation as are many unsuccessful traders/gamblers on here.
I think the biggest difference for us unsuccessful people is the inability to deal with the red screen. That is because we haven't really accepted that losses are a part of trading. Every casino loses money but as it has an edge in the long term they win. Every time you open a position you are gambling, but the ability to control the losses is what sets trading apart. Euler has recently said that his losses are always small and controlled, but they are there. He knows what to do with a red screen. I don't and most unsuccessful people don't either.
I am now solving my "head" rather than trying new strategies as all strategies will have the red screen at some point. Once the mind is sorted just pick a strategy.
Gotta survive long enough for that to occur of course.

Good luck and carry on.

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