Do Betfair trade their own markets ?

[conduirez]

There's been a lot of repeating threads over the years

What drew me to this one was the job advert for a trader at Betfair, which The Silk Run referred to.

I believe you are correct with that statement. I heard unofficially several years ago they do indeed have their own in-house Trading Team !!!

[conduirez]

This post

I know we have discussed this in other posts and betfair have always said they don't. I thought this topic was worthy of its own post..source: http://ca.linkedin.com/jobs2/view/6128816

Just seen this Job posting on Linkedin (posted thre days ago):-

Head of Trading Logistics

The Role:

Heading up the Trading Ops team, you will be responsible for driving productivity and efficiency through strong and engaging leadership. You will work with key stakeholders within the Trading department to ensure the department’s goals are met through intelligent and commercially astute scheduling and management of resources. You will be leading a team of In-Play Shift Leads, In-Play traders and Trading Assistants. You will be responsible for the performance management and development of the team.



The role offers an exciting and challenging opportunity in a fast paced and dynamic trading environment.

The Team:


The Trading Ops team supports both the Pre-Match and In-Play Sportsbook product offering and is composed of Betfair’s In-Play Traders and Trading Assistants.

The Trading Assistants are responsible for administrative duties within Trading which drive accurate creation, management and settlement of Sportsbook markets while the In-Play team manage Betfair’s Sportsbook In-Play product.

The team works closely with the wider Trading team to ensure a consistent, competitive offering which prioritises our customer’s needs.
Desired Skills and Experience

Key Responsibilities:

Schedule intelligently to maximise resources and revenue
Work closely with Trading Heads to support a competitive sportsbook product
Ensure best practice is followed across the department
Ensure customer queries are dealt with promptly and accurately
Performance Management of In-Play Traders, Shift Leads and Trading Assistants
Ensure accurate creation, management and settlement of Sportsbook markets
Assist with administrative duties relating to the Trading department’s smooth running
Assist colleagues when required
Work closely and build relationships with key stakeholders across the business

Essential Skills & Experience

Previous experience in a logistics centric role
Proven leadership qualities
Excellent organisational skills
Proven ability to motivate teams to high performance
Track record of generating innovative solutions to complex problems
Commercially astute
Excellent written and verbal communication skills
Strong eye for detail
Ability to delegate and maximise resources
In-depth knowledge of the Sporting Calendar
Passionate about sports and betting
Ability to work flexible hours (evenings and weekends) and deliver results under pressure

Desirable Skills & Experience

Higher education
Proficient Microsoft office user, particularly Excel
Strong numerical skills

[jamesedwards]

What drew me to this one was the job advert for a trader at Betfair, which The Silk Run referred to.

Sounds like the team that manages the market prices for Sportsbook.

It may well also includes the set-up and market management for Exchanges, but nowhere do I see anything that mentions manging a P&L through trading on in-house exchange markets.

[jamesedwards]

There's been a lot of repeating threads over the years

Naturally, as the markets generally mature and become increasingly efficient, every now and then a once profitable trader will find themselves dropping out of profit.

I think many of them scratch around looking for something tangible to blame; (Bots, Bet-unfair, secret faster pics, GPS etc etc). And there conspiracy theories are born. Very occasionally of course, something wild turns out to be true, like when those guys figured out how to beat the bet placement delay by messing with available balance. But most of it is nonsense and makes no logical sense. There are some totally batshit-crazy conspiracy claims repeated daily in the Betfair horse racing forum.

[Derek27]

...like when those guys figured out how to beat the bet placement delay by messing with available balance.

Absolute genius!

[decomez6]

There's been a lot of repeating threads over the years

Naturally, as the markets generally mature and become increasingly efficient, every now and then a once profitable trader will find themselves dropping out of profit.

I think many of them scratch around looking for something tangible to blame; (Bots, Bet-unfair, secret faster pics, GPS etc etc). And there conspiracy theories are born. Very occasionally of course, something wild turns out to be true, like when those guys figured out how to beat the bet placement delay by messing with available balance. But most of it is nonsense and makes no logical sense. There are some totally batshit-crazy conspiracy claims repeated daily in the Betfair horse racing forum.

A certain percentage of every trade on the exchange is partially arrived at through a conspiratorial decision making process.

Every now and then we make decisions that look irrational on the surface level but end up being counter intuitive which then result to an edge .
It's a thin line between conspiracy and critical thinking.

Me playing the devil's advocate would ask the question?
Q -Does bet fair interfere with the Free fair market on the exchange ?
A- yes

Q- how ?
-Cross matching that will influence my and other traders trading decisions
This happens knowingly or unknowingly.
- does it have an overall effect ? If NOT why use it.
- who does it benefit .
- liquidity and volume is a well defined entry point , why create a process that is likely to affect the two.
- how many traders are aware of it .

NB: this is just a smoking gun .NOT proof of any wrong doing . The intention is not yet established.
But the evidence is present.

Other ways that BF interfer is through : CRASHES

- it's a forced stop loss that traders must account for .
- it's not traders fault and therefore should be compensated
-this also forces Artificial cut off point , where most traders are forced close their trades before the off either through Bsp or LAST traded prices ... BSP being the favoured one to mitigate against CRASHES.

This could explain why the IN Play traded volume has remained at 20%-25% of overall trading volume over the years.

---- I think we both agree there is interference and there is evidence for it .
Where we differ is the proof of malicious intentions.
Does BETFAIR do it for good reasons ?
does it benefit us ?

Oh and don't forget the BSP is calculated at the wrong time! .. you will know this through the TPD metrics. Is this good or bad ?

Now let's HEAD to the EXCHANGE ,bet on it

[decomez6]

...like when those guys figured out how to beat the bet placement delay by messing with available balance.

Absolute genius!

If it was for me the delay should not exist!
Why close the ' LOOPhole ' when your job is to make money through commission on winning bets .
The markets should be free from any external interference. BETFAIR should only provide the interface

[Kai]

There's been a lot of repeating threads over the years

Naturally, as the markets generally mature and become increasingly efficient, every now and then a once profitable trader will find themselves dropping out of profit.

I think many of them scratch around looking for something tangible to blame; (Bots, Bet-unfair, secret faster pics, GPS etc etc). And there conspiracy theories are born. Very occasionally of course, something wild turns out to be true, like when those guys figured out how to beat the bet placement delay by messing with available balance. But most of it is nonsense and makes no logical sense. There are some totally batshit-crazy conspiracy claims repeated daily in the Betfair horse racing forum.

You're not wrong

I meant more along the lines of we all eventually ask the same questions and go through similar thought processes, trying to crack the same old markets etc.

And when some of those questions get too complex to properly answer because of <insufficient data>, the mind will naturally gravitate towards a conspiracy theory because conveniently that's a quick and easy answer.

But ultimately it's too often a lazy answer, so the same threads will keep popping up, and with very little novelty, there must be people that haven't seen anything new in years, only maybe new ways to say the same old things.

As thought processes go I'm a big fan of logical deduction and obviously not every conspiracy is a theory, but I will also admit that sometimes it's impossible not to fall prey to any number of cognitive biases out there.

[Kai]

A certain percentage of every trade on the exchange is partially arrived at through a conspiratorial decision making process.

Every now and then we make decisions that look irrational on the surface level but end up being counter intuitive which then result to an edge .
It's a thin line between conspiracy and critical thinking.

A valid point as well but feeding an existing confirmation bias for example can be a slippery slope, as you know there's also a thin line between madness and genius.

To anyone NEW lurking on here that CANNOT resist the thought that the market is simply conspiring against them...... I would suggest the following thought process and to use that as a basic template to build your framework on, it's probably nothing new to your ears and many have said it before, the borrowed concepts are as old as trading concepts themselves but it doesn't make it any less true.

Think of it along these lines, if the long term market is efficient your long term result from RANDOM bets will be a big fat zero, minus commission, but a zero is technically not a negative result.

And zero is the result BEFORE you add any skill, ability, experience, expertise, software tools (or anything else that can help beat the long term market efficiency) to the equation.

How hard is it then to actually "learn to trade", and to push yourself over this seemingly thin line into profitable territory? On the betting exchange? Compared to the bookies where the odds are truly stacked against you and you get shut down on top of that.

So nudging yourself over that line is clearly not the difficult part, the difficult part lies in overcoming all the various cognitive biases that result in -EV, which PREVENT you from starting at zero.

[Derek27]

...like when those guys figured out how to beat the bet placement delay by messing with available balance.

Absolute genius!

If it was for me the delay should not exist!
Why close the ' LOOPhole ' when your job is to make money through commission on winning bets .
The markets should be free from any external interference. BETFAIR should only provide the interface

Liquidity would drop like a brick. People would stop trading once they realise all their money's being snatched by someone with faster pics.

[jimibt]

so -are we saying, time to close the conspiracy thread (again!!)

[decomez6]

Absolute genius!

If it was for me the delay should not exist!
Why close the ' LOOPhole ' when your job is to make money through commission on winning bets .
The markets should be free from any external interference. BETFAIR should only provide the interface

Liquidity would drop like a brick. People would stop trading once they realise all their money's being snatched by someone with faster pics.

I think the market will be more predictable. The wisdom of the big crowd will follow the wisdom of the Elite .
Thus presenting other opportunities.
Don't you like a big fat- finger? Now imagine that everyday and everyone knows where to look.
Other services will emerge within the market , TPD is just a small tip of the iceberg .And due to competition and a rewarding incentive , Many others will emerge and come up with much better technology .
delays or lack thereof will not stop punters from hunting for better prices or pre off trading from taking place .

I just don't like the idea of a big brother with an invisible hand stopping the natural flow of the market.
Whi says big brother is not using it to benefit himself !!

Power corrupt, absolute power corrupt absolutely

[The Silk Run]

Hasn't that always been the case throughout time "the house always wins". Regardless of the successes of individuals.

[Derek27]

If it was for me the delay should not exist!
Why close the ' LOOPhole ' when your job is to make money through commission on winning bets .
The markets should be free from any external interference. BETFAIR should only provide the interface

Liquidity would drop like a brick. People would stop trading once they realise all their money's being snatched by someone with faster pics.

I think the market will be more predictable. The wisdom of the big crowd will follow the wisdom of the Elite .
Thus presenting other opportunities.
Don't you like a big fat- finger? Now imagine that everyday and everyone knows where to look.
Other services will emerge within the market , TPD is just a small tip of the iceberg .And due to competition and a rewarding incentive , Many others will emerge and come up with much better technology .
delays or lack thereof will not stop punters from hunting for better prices or pre off trading from taking place .

I just don't like the idea of a big brother with an invisible hand stopping the natural flow of the market.
Whi says big brother is not using it to benefit himself !!

Power corrupt, absolute power corrupt absolutely

It would make leaving unmatched bets on the risky side of the O/U market untenable. When a goal is scored that money would be gone. Of course you could use other strategies but I'd definitely keep things the way they are.

[decomez6]

A certain percentage of every trade on the exchange is partially arrived at through a conspiratorial decision making process.

Every now and then we make decisions that look irrational on the surface level but end up being counter intuitive which then result to an edge .
It's a thin line between conspiracy and critical thinking.

A valid point as well but feeding an existing confirmation bias for example can be a slippery slope, as you know there's also a thin line between madness and genius.

To anyone NEW lurking on here that CANNOT resist the thought that the market is simply conspiring against them...... I would suggest the following thought process and to use that as a basic template to build your framework on, it's probably nothing new to your ears and many have said it before, the borrowed concepts are as old as trading concepts themselves but it doesn't make it any less true.

Think of it along these lines, if the long term market is efficient your long term result from RANDOM bets will be a big fat zero, minus commission, but a zero is technically not a negative result.

And zero is the result BEFORE you add any skill, ability, experience, expertise, software tools (or anything else that can help beat the long term market efficiency) to the equation.

How hard is it then to actually "learn to trade", and to push yourself over this seemingly thin line into profitable territory? On the betting exchange? Compared to the bookies where the odds are truly stacked against you and you get shut down on top of that.

So nudging yourself over that line is clearly not the difficult part, the difficult part lies in overcoming all the various cognitive biases that result in -EV, which PREVENT you from starting at zero.

Very good advice indeed.
Knowing what to do does not necessarily mean shall will do it .
Putting health warnings on certain foods and drugs doesn't stop people with great intellect from indulging in the same .
We know the market is efficient.
How to benefit from is also well documented through the bell curve .
What to do to get the benefits is where many fail.

Take a simple Make market button ... How many have actually let it run through all available markets and see where it makes profit or not . Or even find the the base rates for all the involved markets.
It's a process that involves some level of managerial skills that most people don't possess.
looking one self in the mirror and finding out things that are uncomfortable.
I am glad I've gone through that initial stage and now the journey just began .
Consistency, maintenance and constantly evolving requires another set of skills.
I think that's where most people pack up and head to their 9-5 jobs .