Israel/Palestine conflict

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firlandsfarm
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Archangel wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:13 am
Britain is largely responsible for the Arab Israeli conflict it should be remembered
Britain (like others) has found itself in many difficult positions. Whenever a Controlling force withdraws the various parties will vie and fight for position. India for example, Yugoslavia another. The same applied to Palestine.

The earlier part of the Bard response read ...

"Late 19th century: The Zionist movement, which advocated for the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine, began to gain momentum.
1917: The British Balfour Declaration pledged British support for the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine.
1920-1948: The British Mandate for Palestine was established, giving Britain control over the territory. During the Mandate period, British policy was largely supportive of Zionist goals, and Jewish immigration to Palestine increased significantly.
1947: The United Nations General Assembly passed Resolution 181, which called for the partition of Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab. The Palestinian Arabs rejected the plan, while the Jewish community accepted it."

The 1947 comment is interesting as it has fully reversed ... now the Palestinian Arabs accept the two state solution in principle but Israel does not. Oh the wheels of diplomacy and politics!

I cannot and will not comment on the position pre 1948 as I have no knowledge of it but it seems to me Britain was damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they had tried to retain control they would have been accused of colonialism and if they relinquished control as they did they can be accused of causing the current dilemma by allowing Israel to self determine and self declare the formation of their state and claim the lands they wanted.

Maybe the Palestinians should have agreed to the original British proposal of two states but they probably saw the country being surrounded by Arab nations and felt they had the upper hand. But then overnight after Israel made it's declaration of UDI the USA recognised the formation of the state of Israel and the balance of power changed instantly.

The fight for the formation of the state of Israel is historically depicted in the film Cast a Giant Shadow (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_a_Giant_Shadow), well as historical as Hollywood can be! The scene I remember most is when Jewish boat people (yes, they had them then!) were depicted arriving on a beach in Palestine and being confronted by British forces who ordered them to turn back, they didn't, so a volley was fired over their heads ... they still didn't move. The British officer remarked (for the film) "why don't they turn back, do they want to be shot" to which his colleague remarked "they have nowhere to go sir"!

Maybe the British could have/should have handled it better but things can always be handled better with the benefit of hindsight and the removal of pressure from all vested interests. Yes it could be said the British were responsible for the handover as it was but they were not helped by America's instant recognition of Israel allowing them to claim the lions share of Palestine.
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firlandsfarm
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napshnap wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:40 am
jimibt wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:20 am
firlandsfarm wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:51 am

I agree (claimed) "baby and child-slaughtering" is totally unacceptable but to say "the images are too horrific to show" could be used to claim anything and not evidence it! But in the past when Palestinians committed acts of terrorism and Israel retaliated with indiscriminate bombing of Gaza Strip resulting in "baby and child-slaughtering" why did The World not condemn Israel's actions?

This 'war' goes back to 1948 when the now state of Israel took control of vast areas of then Palestine and declared UDI over it exiling Palestinians out of their homes and country and they have continually expanded their borders since then pushing and squeezing the Palestinians into ever smaller lands. I don't agree with the Palestinian tactics but Israel and The World are not innocent in this. Israel has been allowed to get away with a form of terrorism over the Palestinians since 1948 and refuses the two state solution. If Germany had 'won' WW2 and the UK was now part of a German Empire do you think we would stop fighting to win our country back?

To the Palestinians Gaza is a prison with 3 million inmates. Israel controls what goes in and what comes out (not very well so it seems if thousands of rockets have been smuggled in!). But why has Hamas embarked on what most would see to be a suicide mission and what does Israel hope to achieve with what we are led to believe to be 300,000 troops ready to invade? Anything those troops do will only stiffen the resolve of the Palestinians that evade Israel's retaliation. Israel has a choice ... negotiate a peaceful resolution whereby they return some land back to the Palestinians or accept that they will live under the constant threat further attacks.

There is probably more to this than meets the eye ... Hamas are probably being supplied by Iran and Iran is probably being supplied by Russia who (again probably) see Israel as an offshore state of the USA ... but that's just conjecture!

BTW in case some think I have an axe to grind over this ... I am not Arabic nor Israeli, I am not Muslim nor Jew ... I'm just white CoE! My interest is because my ex is of Jewish/Israeli decent and her father was British and served in the Palestinian Police Force through the conflict of the late 1940's after the end of WW2 and kept a daily diary of events which I have.

Bard summarised the conflict of more recent years as ...

"1948: The Arab-Israeli War of 1948 broke out, following the declaration of independence of the State of Israel. The war ended with Israel in control of most of the territory that had been allocated to it under the UN partition plan, as well as additional territory that had been allocated to the Palestinian Arabs.
1949: The Palestinian refugee crisis began, as hundreds of thousands of Palestinians fled or were expelled from their homes in Israel.
1967: The Six-Day War broke out between Israel and its Arab neighbors. Israel emerged victorious from the war, occupying the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Sinai Peninsula, and Golan Heights.
1973: The Yom Kippur War broke out between Israel and its Arab neighbors. Israel again emerged victorious from the war, but at a high cost.
1978: The Camp David Accords were signed between Israel and Egypt, leading to the withdrawal of Israeli forces from the Sinai Peninsula.
1993: The Oslo Accords were signed between Israel and the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), leading to the establishment of the Palestinian Authority (PA).
2000: The Second Intifada, a Palestinian uprising against Israeli occupation, began.
2005: Israel withdrew its forces from the Gaza Strip, but maintained a blockade and control over the territory's borders.
2014: The Gaza War broke out between Israel and Hamas. The war ended with a ceasefire, but the conflict remains unresolved.
The war that began on October 7, 2023 is the latest chapter in this long and complex conflict.

It is important to note that there are many different perspectives on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and that the above is just a brief overview of some of the key milestones."
excellent summation - !!
No it's not... (but maybe you meant Bard's summation)

viewtopic.php?p=339717#p339717

viewtopic.php?p=339859#p339859
Sorry napshnap but I don't see the relevance of those posts
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firlandsfarm
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Kai wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:23 pm
Euler wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:12 am
Nobody has been able to successfully solve this issue in history.
I hear what you're saying Peter. Challenge accepted!

Indeed, this ancient conflict is almost as old as the one between Firlandsfarm and Derek27... but by God I think the lads here collectively have just enough trader ego to make it work, and with the assistance of ChatGPT and Bard there is no reason why they couldn't find a working solution by the end of the week!

Godspeed gentlemen 😇
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
greenmark
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firlandsfarm wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:32 pm
Archangel wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:13 am
Britain is largely responsible for the Arab Israeli conflict it should be remembered
Britain (like others) has found itself in many difficult positions. Whenever a Controlling force withdraws the various parties will vie and fight for position. India for example, Yugoslavia another. The same applied to Palestine.

The earlier part of the Bard response read ...

"Late 19th century: The Zionist movement, which advocated for the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine, began to gain momentum.
1917: The British Balfour Declaration pledged British support for the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine.
1920-1948: The British Mandate for Palestine was established, giving Britain control over the territory. During the Mandate period, British policy was largely supportive of Zionist goals, and Jewish immigration to Palestine increased significantly.
1947: The United Nations General Assembly passed Resolution 181, which called for the partition of Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab. The Palestinian Arabs rejected the plan, while the Jewish community accepted it."

The 1947 comment is interesting as it has fully reversed ... now the Palestinian Arabs accept the two state solution in principle but Israel does not. Oh the wheels of diplomacy and politics!

I cannot and will not comment on the position pre 1948 as I have no knowledge of it but it seems to me Britain was damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they had tried to retain control they would have been accused of colonialism and if they relinquished control as they did they can be accused of causing the current dilemma by allowing Israel to self determine and self declare the formation of their state and claim the lands they wanted.

Maybe the Palestinians should have agreed to the original British proposal of two states but they probably saw the country being surrounded by Arab nations and felt they had the upper hand. But then overnight after Israel made it's declaration of UDI the USA recognised the formation of the state of Israel and the balance of power changed instantly.

The fight for the formation of the state of Israel is historically depicted in the film Cast a Giant Shadow (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_a_Giant_Shadow), well as historical as Hollywood can be! The scene I remember most is when Jewish boat people (yes, they had them then!) were depicted arriving on a beach in Palestine and being confronted by British forces who ordered them to turn back, they didn't, so a volley was fired over their heads ... they still didn't move. The British officer remarked (for the film) "why don't they turn back, do they want to be shot" to which his colleague remarked "they have nowhere to go sir"!

Maybe the British could have/should have handled it better but things can always be handled better with the benefit of hindsight and the removal of pressure from all vested interests. Yes it could be said the British were responsible for the handover as it was but they were not helped by America's instant recognition of Israel allowing them to claim the lions share of Palestine.
Israel has been under an existential threat since it's latest iteration after WW2.
I can't say whether Israel or the Hamas/Palestine/Arabic Coalition are right.
But plonk millions of people randomly (sort of) into someone else's country and the displaced or marginalised people are going to be pretty cheesed off.
That existential threat to Israel informs everything they do. They will secure their borders and go into Gaza and assainate everyone they think is significant and they won't be worried about the innocent they kill in the process.
Hamas (perhaps with sponsors) have poured misery on Israel and Gaza.
There are some really unpleasant humans.
C'est la vie, sadly.
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firlandsfarm
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greenmark wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 2:51 pm
Israel has been under an existential threat since it's latest iteration after WW2.
I can't say whether Israel or the Hamas/Palestine/Arabic Coalition are right.
But plonk millions of people randomly (sort of) into someone else's country and the displaced or marginalised people are going to be pretty cheesed off.
That existential threat to Israel informs everything they do. They will secure their borders and go into Gaza and assainate everyone they think is significant and they won't be worried about the innocent they kill in the process.
Hamas (perhaps with sponsors) have poured misery on Israel and Gaza.
There are some really unpleasant humans.
C'est la vie, sadly.
I good, well balanced view of the position, I agree, they are both to blame. My concern was that the blame was only going one way by those who probably didn't know of the history.
greenmark
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firlandsfarm wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 4:06 pm
greenmark wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 2:51 pm
Israel has been under an existential threat since it's latest iteration after WW2.
I can't say whether Israel or the Hamas/Palestine/Arabic Coalition are right.
But plonk millions of people randomly (sort of) into someone else's country and the displaced or marginalised people are going to be pretty cheesed off.
That existential threat to Israel informs everything they do. They will secure their borders and go into Gaza and assainate everyone they think is significant and they won't be worried about the innocent they kill in the process.
Hamas (perhaps with sponsors) have poured misery on Israel and Gaza.
There are some really unpleasant humans.
C'est la vie, sadly.
I good, well balanced view of the position, I agree, they are both to blame. My concern was that the blame was only going one way by those who probably didn't know of the history.
It's quite shocking what humans will do. 2000 people dead 1000's injured and 1000's with their lives turned upside down. The alternative? A few guys and girls get round a table and talk and talk and talk and coalesce their commbined intellect into a workable compromise.
More Lennonist idealism from me there. "Imagine all the people living life in peace. You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
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Archangel
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All the politicians squirming when asked if the Israelis have carte blanch to do their worst in Gaza
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Derek27
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firlandsfarm wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:34 am
Oh dear, what is it about some on these forums, why do they not read what is said?
If nobody is able to read what you say, it may not be a problem with people on the forum, it may be the way you articulate your thoughts. :mrgreen:
Archery1969
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If Israel kills thousands in Gaza then all Jews around the globe will become targets.

They should think what they’re doing.

I understand some or most want vengeance but it might come back to bite all Jewish people living outside of Israel, which most do.

Think, think, think!!!!
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Derek27
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I'm all for lighting up the Wembley arch in Israeli colours but I can't believe anyone is actually arguing about it. I think that one's beyond even me and firlandfarms. :lol:
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firlandsfarm
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greenmark wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 5:23 pm
More Lennonist idealism from me there. "Imagine all the people living life in peace. You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
Another lennonist ... yes, i recently quoted to @Derek27, the world could learn a lot from Imagine
Last edited by firlandsfarm on Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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firlandsfarm
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Derek27 wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 6:47 pm
firlandsfarm wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:34 am
Oh dear, what is it about some on these forums, why do they not read what is said?
If nobody is able to read what you say, it may not be a problem with people on the forum, it may be the way you articulate your thoughts. :mrgreen:
I articulate my thoughts factually and logically ... the problem is some people who can't stand the truth ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FnO3igOkOk
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firlandsfarm
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Archery1969 wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 6:57 pm
If Israel kills thousands in Gaza then all Jews around the globe will become targets.

They should think what they’re doing.

I understand some or most want vengeance but it might come back to bite all Jewish people living outside of Israel, which most do.

Think, think, think!!!!
Agreed
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firlandsfarm
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Derek27 wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 8:56 pm
I'm all for lighting up the Wembley arch in Israeli colours but I can't believe anyone is actually arguing about it. I think that one's beyond even me and firlandfarms. :lol:
I don't see what the Wembley arch has to do with it ... if we are neutral I assume we lit the Wembley arch in Palestinian colours when Israel conducted their retaliatory indiscriminate bombing raids, yes?
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Derek27
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firlandsfarm wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:23 pm
Derek27 wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 8:56 pm
I'm all for lighting up the Wembley arch in Israeli colours but I can't believe anyone is actually arguing about it. I think that one's beyond even me and firlandfarms. :lol:
I don't see what the Wembley arch has to do with it ... if we are neutral I assume we lit the Wembley arch in Palestinian colours when Israel conducted their retaliatory indiscriminate bombing raids, yes?
Maybe not then!
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