Really Struggling

[Smothcy4]

Thanks ShaunWhite. Would you say horse racing is the hardest out of the others or are they all equal?

All I can say to that is, for me anyway, I found it tough. Others take to it like a duck to water. It's one of those things where if you can do it then it seems easy and if you can't it seems impossible.
Sorry that's so vague but the cliché 'horses for courses' really does apply here. It's tough to consider another way though, there's a huge sunk cost to overcome and a perpetual feeling of almost being there.

Good luck though.

Thank you. I am currently finding it though, not mentally but just more confused on what to focus on next. I have a question to anyone in this thread. When you define an 'edge' can this be 'execution, momentum, order flow, weight of money, live pictures, mindset' or is it completely something different and unique? I do understand kind of what an edge is, an advantage over the market, but these above seem quite popular, so not really an edge are they? or are they? I'm just trying to figure it out on what i should be looking at next other than these, as i am trying to break the break Evan as Dallas mentioned.

Sorry to sound stupid.

[ShaunWhite]

Not stupid at all. The issue is that 'edge' is a bit a fuzzy term. Some will say it's something you should be able to qualify and quantify with mathematical precision, but an 'edge' is also just being better equipped than your competition, that could be being smarter or harder working through to stuff like having faster pictures. It's a very convenient term to throw at people as a reason for failure but one that few are prepared to explain in enough detail for them to do anything about. Perhaps you need a 1-to-1 masterclass to find out what your edge is/could be and how to turn that into a profit. You certainly sound like you know enough and take this more seriously than most, you just need help getting over the line from someone who walks the walk, like Peter.

[ShaunWhite]

... trouble is there aren't many Peters to choose from, lots of profitable people aren't really into spreading the secrets of their success or they choose to be the idle(?) rich rather than being in a classroom and enjoying teaching and promoting the industry.

[Smothcy4]

Not stupid at all. The issue is that 'edge' is a bit a fuzzy term. Some will say it's something you should be able to qualify and quantify with mathematical precision, but an 'edge' is also just being better equipped than your competition, that could be being smarter or harder working through to stuff like having faster pictures. It's a very convenient term to throw at people as a reason for failure but one that few are prepared to explain in enough detail for them to do anything about. Perhaps you need a 1-to-1 masterclass to find out what your edge is/could be and how to turn that into a profit. You certainly sound like you know enough and take this more seriously than most, you just need help getting over the line from someone who walks the walk, like Peter.

Thank you Shaun, I really appreciate your reply and support. I would be very interested in a 1-to-1 masterclass. Are you referring to peters or someone else like Steve Howe? Do you know when these run from? I will keep an eye out for the next one available.

[iambic_pentameter]

OP

Whilst on the face of it, 18 months seems a long time, the average time it took the pro's that I'm aware of to go full time, was around 4 years. This means that you are doing well and certainly heading in the right direction.

I remember when I started out coming across some material that suggested it would take 3 years to fully understand how the racing markets work. At the time, I thought "No way. It won't take that long" and, as it was, that was about right.

You've laid some very solid foundations and just need to keep going - be methodical, be disciplined and you have an excellent chance of cracking it.

Iambic

[Smothcy4]

OP

Whilst on the face of it, 18 months seems a long time, the average time it took the pro's that I'm aware of to go full time, was around 4 years. This means that you are doing well and certainly heading in the right direction.

I remember when I started out coming across some material that suggested it would take 3 years to fully understand how the racing markets work. At the time, I thought "No way. It won't take that long" and, as it was, that was about right.

You've laid some very solid foundations and just need to keep going - be methodical, be disciplined and you have an excellent chance of cracking it.

Iambic

Thank you Iambic! Yes i agree - 18 months isn't that long really and it would be more disappointing if i hadn't learned anything over the past 18 months, but when i look back i have learned so much. I hope you can agree from my posts. I am very fortunate as well not to have lost lots of money, i heard people about blowing bank rolls and all sorts, it's hard for me to accept that, so i don't do anything rational. I play very defensive.

Could you offer some advice on what to focus on next? Would you just continue as i am doing, or focus on as i mentioned above the common order flow, momentum etc. or should i start testing new ideas. Thanks again.

[iambic_pentameter]

A common trait I've noticed from interacting with traders and reading too many interviews with traders, is that there seemed to be a point when 'it just clicked' so there isn't any really advice other than just keep going; turn up in the markets each day and keep practicing your craft.

This post by Peter may be of interest;

https://www.betangel.com/blog_wp/2014/12/02/kaizen/

Iambic

[ShaunWhite]

Thank you Shaun, I really appreciate your reply and support. I would be very interested in a 1-to-1 masterclass. Are you referring to peters or someone else like Steve Howe?

Tbf I haven't got a clue. Iambic is nailing it with what he's saying. Getting to a point of consistent profit is a long old job, that's obviously not a message people selling courses often mention.

But that said it's not brain surgery, so with dedication, realistic expectations and a thirst for knowledge, it's doable. My std trite goto advice is don't run out of money before you run out of lessons to learn.

[jamesg46]

It seems like you are already aware that you need to improve your average result (expectancy).

I'd advise dropping the # of trades you're taking if you're trading most markets.
As an exercise give yourself 5 trades per day (not 5 markets) and that will get your mind looking for the most premium setups.

It's natural for us to feel we have to be doing something to be making money but as with most things trading, you need to develop the habit of going against the grain.

Make extensive notes each day regarding the trades you are taking to do more of what works and less of what isn't.
As we tend to be more critical of ourselves than supportive, try focusing particularly on identifying and reinforcing strengths only for a while.

I would also add that as more time passes if you're still not progressing, begin to put some effort into different market types / sports on the side of what you're already doing as, just as you can't spot something here but some can, you may spot something elsewhere where other's can't.

Best of luck.

Great idea about picking a certain amount of trades per day, thank you!

[wearthefoxhat]

Could you offer some advice on what to focus on next? Would you just continue as i am doing, or focus on as i mentioned above the common order flow, momentum etc. or should i start testing new ideas. Thanks again.

Some good posts/guidance. I'm no teacher, but I'm willing to share the type of approach I've settled on. Others will do something different, that's what makes the world go round. You probably know this one, but it works well for me.

My aim is to scalp one tick, with momentum, being near front of the queue, have a stop loss and not have to predict which way the price will go.

Momentum.PNG

In the image there's a trade placed @ 14.50 and @ 9.20. Both would be very near the front of the queue. (prices in boxes are gappy)
Assume the trend is heading towards the lay @9.20, I'd now be hovering the mouse to back at 9.40 (as the money gets eaten just above the price)
I know I'm at the front of queue (PIQ can be used too). So as soon as the 9.40 lay money goes, I fire a back order @9.40.
Then green up.

The software set up can also fire in a stop loss at the same time as I send in my 9.40 scalp in case the trade goes against me.

I would then cancel the other trade @14.50 as it's not required.

A stable market is preferred (high liquidity, high quality races) even a large field with a weak favourite are steady,

[Smothcy4]

Thank you for sharing this so it can help me towards what I should look for and focus on. Your execution and plan seems simple but effective. Do you still monitor the others when doing this approach, what I mean by this. If you see no support for others and the trade is heading towards a 9.20 lay, do you still stick with it or would you cancel the lay or move it down slightly?

How's your success with doing this approach over the long-term? Also, when you choose the prices, do you tend to focus at the bottom and top of the range only? Do you tend to focus on certain prices too? What I mean by this, you mentioned 9.20 lay and 14.50 back, was there any particular reason you choose these prices or was it just because they was at the top and bottom of the trading range. Either way thanks

[ruthlessimon]

I'm no teacher, but I'm willing to share the type of approach I've settled on.

One of the most open posts I've seen in a while.

More say the crowd

[wearthefoxhat]

Thank you for sharing this so it can help me towards what I should look for and focus on. Your execution and plan seems simple but effective. Do you still monitor the others when doing this approach, what I mean by this. If you see no support for others and the trade is heading towards a 9.20 lay, do you still stick with it or would you cancel the lay or move it down slightly?

How's your success with doing this approach over the long-term? Also, when you choose the prices, do you tend to focus at the bottom and top of the range only? Do you tend to focus on certain prices too? What I mean by this, you mentioned 9.20 lay and 14.50 back, was there any particular reason you choose these prices or was it just because they was at the top and bottom of the trading range. Either way thanks

Essentially is doesn't matter about the selection or monitoring any other runner, if the boxes are "gappy" enough on both the back and lay side, then that will do for me, then let the momentum take over. In theory, I could do more than one, it just means I would need to be ready to hover with the mouse on those too.

Yes, can cancel and move the trade, only if my position in queue (PIQ) is reasonable. It works best to make an early decision, if no trade opportunity occurs, move on to the next race. I have at times put up more than 1 trade either side on the same selection (if opportunity allows it) that comes with a little more confidence.

No specific decision about the prices, only if the gaps are there and I'm confident the market will have liquidity/stability.

Just to repeat, it suits my style, (it may not suit yours). I can learn/watch how the market behaving and be confident there's a high probability I can complete a successful trade.

Your attitude to risk/reward may be higher than mine and you may want to ping in lots of trades either side and see how many you can scalp. Only thing with that is the market may have other ideas and sweep through leaving your position over exposed, panic and then you're tempted to let it go in-play to get out of trouble...(good luck with that)... A stable market reduces the chance this could happen, but the mad bomber may appear and scupper the best laid plans. (even the stop loss may get swept aside if he/she appears).

B.A have recently added the PIQ option. It's an estimated figure, but confirms where you are even when other orders start to appear.

[HALwal123]

Im in the same poisiton as you, still consider myself a newbie after 2 years. No loss as such, but no real profits. Gave up for a while and came back to it. For me it chnaged when I started using the ladder and understandng it. I trade on two horses whos odds are opposng each other. I find it easier to reverse the odds, makes it easier to see I think. Small trades. Never risking my bank. I started with a £50 bank (dont laugh !) mid Feb and now have just under £1k.
Keep going. I feel your pain but like any skill it takes practice and time.
Good luck

[Smothcy4]

Many Thanks, I appreciate you sharing your ideas on this and will give me some insight on what to focus on. I think that's the problem many people have including myself. We focus on what other people are doing, whether this is on Forums, Books or YouTube, and not focusing on our own trading style. Perhaps i should study more about myself and what works for me instead of trying to copy what others do. I think initially we copy others because we think that's what works, but as mentioned what works when scalping/swing trading for some, may not work for me as others have suggested.

Thank you HALwal - Yes it's a long and hard process, but i think we can make things much easier if we find what works for us. As you have mentioned about the ladders, this may work for you, but not work for me. I think it's really important on what suits us best.

Are you trading the pre-race horse markets too or are you focusing on something else? A £50 bank is perfectly fine, and i consider that to be reasonable when starting out. Others start with large banks and just lose it, so in my opinion a small bank is the sensible idea with small staking. When you look at any business or anything in life, it takes time. Surgeons, Pilots, Lawyers, whatever it may be, all of these was not learned in 12 months.

Best of luck to you! I hope you can make it work.