Hi all. I'm fully aware that chasing a 'green up all' towards the end of a race can result in some bets being matched while others are not, as the market moves so fast, however I did not expect to be dutching for a liability of £50, yet when attempting to green-up for a small profit, ended up greening all but the eventual winner whose liability almost DOUBLED to £98!
I lost £98 on the outsider who I had not backed. My point is that had I not attempted to green up I would have only lost £50.
How is this possible? And why is the software allowing potential DOUBLING OF LIABILITY? If I try to 'cash-in' with betfair's own website, it NEVER increases liability, so why does BetAngels?
I'm very unhappy about this and happy to show screenshots and statement proof if someone at BA can take this forwards?
Has anyone else seen an increase in liability when attempting to green-up in play? Or is it my settings that are wrong somewhere? All advice welcomed to prevent this costly error happening again!
Greening Up in Play DOUBLED MY LIABILITY!?!
If you can post a shot of your log someone might be able to unpick it for you, but BA only submit bets you instruct it to.
Where you closing each selection individually or using the total hedge figure?
By default the hedge option is disabled for dutching & bookmaking so i assume you have unticked this?
Where you closing each selection individually or using the total hedge figure?
By default the hedge option is disabled for dutching & bookmaking so i assume you have unticked this?
There is a box within the behaviour tab on the settings page. It's entitled 'Green up Restriction' and allows you to avoid a potential mishap of using 'Dutching' and traditional greening up methods in conjunction with each other.
I would recommend newbies and novice traders to tick this box, especially if you're involved in 'in play', where gaps in the prices can be utterly disastrous if greening up a Dutched market
I would recommend newbies and novice traders to tick this box, especially if you're involved in 'in play', where gaps in the prices can be utterly disastrous if greening up a Dutched market
Might be connection speed, I use public access Wi-Fi, it happens quite frequently. Nothing to do with BA or BF, the response times/reaction times cause anomalies in the time/space continuum (gosh that sounds almost Dr Whoish). Check out BBC.CO.UK - Obama (the prez type guy). The Man with the big end of the world button has difficulty in the White House! (I just gotta problem pickin' ponies from donkeys)
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Crazyskier
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Thanks, I'll check that but it wasn't system dutching, but rather my own backing of several runners to a liability of £50. Regardless of connection speed, or the outsider steaming in, how on earth does a 'green up all' request INCREASE my loss from £50 to £98!!!LeTiss 4pm wrote:There is a box within the behaviour tab on the settings page. It's entitled 'Green up Restriction' and allows you to avoid a potential mishap of using 'Dutching' and traditional greening up methods in conjunction with each other.
I would recommend newbies and novice traders to tick this box, especially if you're involved in 'in play', where gaps in the prices can be utterly disastrous if greening up a Dutched market
I'm just bewildered that the BA software does this, never ever with other software or Betfair's own software has any in-play green up or hedging INCREASED the potential loss - why does the BA software? It's not the first time this has happened by the way, just more pronounced this time as it was such an appalling loss amount on the winner.
I need to be sure that when I click green up all it will only attempt to reduce losses / maximise profits not cost me more!
if you are attempting to green up inplay, you should not be surprised if you red up instead.
the price can move quickly away from your entry, which can get amplifed by betfairs imposed inplay delayed bet submission.
betangel is not at fault or doing anything wrong at all; it would appear to be being doing what you have requested it to do, ie green up at a price and then betfair are matching after their imposed delay, at the best price available at that time.
the price can move quickly away from your entry, which can get amplifed by betfairs imposed inplay delayed bet submission.
betangel is not at fault or doing anything wrong at all; it would appear to be being doing what you have requested it to do, ie green up at a price and then betfair are matching after their imposed delay, at the best price available at that time.
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Crazyskier
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SIGH...to75ne wrote:
betangel is not at fault or doing anything wrong at all; it would appear to be being doing what you have requested it to do, ie green up at a price and then betfair are matching after their imposed delay, at the best price available at that time.
You misunderstand my point. Please re-read the OP. I asked BA to green up or red up my selections with a liability of £50. I ended up losing £98 - £48 MORE than if I hadn't touched BA software!
ALL other software I've tried, including Betfair's own site NEVER EVER risks more than your liability! Whether seeking to lock-in a profit, or to reduce losses, it should NEVER DOUBLE LOSSES, regardless of odds movement in that time!
Comprende ? This is a FLAW, that I'm still trying to see if I can avoid in future using BAPro. Surely other have had this issue too? Or did I somehow mis-click and hit the green up button TWICE, which tells the bot to double my liability somehow? Some sensible answers regarding settings and how I avoid this INCREASE OF LIABILITY (the very reverse of what green/red-up is supposed to achieve) would be most welcome.
Hi Crazyskier
Without additional evidence my initial thoughts would be the same as convoysur-2 - multiple bets caused by greening up several times in rapid succession.
The only way to avoid this is to make sure you wait for the in-play delay so that all bets are submitted before pressing the green up again.
However, without further evidence, it is very difficult to help - all suggestions can only be speculation.
You say you have screen shots - it would be useful to see these.
Also, as Dallas has stated, it would be useful to see the log - if you have it.
Another very useful screenshot would be the Betfair profit and loss for this particular race showing all bets that were matched.
If you do post this don't forget to remove any personal info and your balance.
Also, do be careful when greening up after dutching - if one of the greened up selections goes on to win you can get serious losses although that doesn't appear to be the reason this time as you have said it was an un-dutched selection that went on to win.
Without additional evidence my initial thoughts would be the same as convoysur-2 - multiple bets caused by greening up several times in rapid succession.
The only way to avoid this is to make sure you wait for the in-play delay so that all bets are submitted before pressing the green up again.
However, without further evidence, it is very difficult to help - all suggestions can only be speculation.
You say you have screen shots - it would be useful to see these.
Also, as Dallas has stated, it would be useful to see the log - if you have it.
Another very useful screenshot would be the Betfair profit and loss for this particular race showing all bets that were matched.
If you do post this don't forget to remove any personal info and your balance.
Also, do be careful when greening up after dutching - if one of the greened up selections goes on to win you can get serious losses although that doesn't appear to be the reason this time as you have said it was an un-dutched selection that went on to win.
I think its important to not view this, as a 1 mkt event.
Other software vendors offer green up facilities, and each seem to do the greening, is different fashions.
I am not sure which is best .. clearly, doubling a liability would be bad .. but, maybe on other days, u improve your equity by 5% or so.
The green-up calc, is especially relevent, when u are backing multiple selections.
The green-up calculation is a mine-field .. I have personally lost more money by this 'function'. than is remotely funny .. and I repeatedly implore software designers to improve this facility .. but, it is obviously far harder requested than done.
We have asked for a preference, (not utilising Guardian), which prohibits green-up orders being sent, if the green-up turns red.
I hope it gets added .. soon.
Other software vendors offer green up facilities, and each seem to do the greening, is different fashions.
I am not sure which is best .. clearly, doubling a liability would be bad .. but, maybe on other days, u improve your equity by 5% or so.
The green-up calc, is especially relevent, when u are backing multiple selections.
The green-up calculation is a mine-field .. I have personally lost more money by this 'function'. than is remotely funny .. and I repeatedly implore software designers to improve this facility .. but, it is obviously far harder requested than done.
We have asked for a preference, (not utilising Guardian), which prohibits green-up orders being sent, if the green-up turns red.
I hope it gets added .. soon.
The most common cause of this is somebody trying to green up in-play. It fires at the best available price but that price has moved since the bet was placed. Or if trying to hedge below minimum value on a big price it may get matched at a price way different. But it's impossible to tell if you don't post the log. Bet Angel only does what you ask it, so posting the log will let everybody tell you what you told it to do.
It might also be worth pointing out something about the effects of the IR delay and refresh rates which is not just applicble to this thread but is something alot of people probebly fall victim to at some point.
Most likely if trading IR you have the refresh set to 200ms which means its getting updates 5 times per seconds from Betfair.
You place your 1st order (back,lay or hedge) and dont see it appear in the market you watch the prices change and refresh 4 times and thinking it has nt worked you click for a 2nd time then instantly on the next refresh you see the order in the market and think "ah done it its worked this time" when in fact this was your 1st order appearing after betfairs 1 sec delay and in another second your 2nd order will also hit the market but you have often turned your attension away at this point thinking you have achived what you intended and dont always relise about this 2nd bet until after the event has finished meaning you now have double the liablity or have just unhedged a poistion your 1st order had sucssefully hedged.
Most likely if trading IR you have the refresh set to 200ms which means its getting updates 5 times per seconds from Betfair.
You place your 1st order (back,lay or hedge) and dont see it appear in the market you watch the prices change and refresh 4 times and thinking it has nt worked you click for a 2nd time then instantly on the next refresh you see the order in the market and think "ah done it its worked this time" when in fact this was your 1st order appearing after betfairs 1 sec delay and in another second your 2nd order will also hit the market but you have often turned your attension away at this point thinking you have achived what you intended and dont always relise about this 2nd bet until after the event has finished meaning you now have double the liablity or have just unhedged a poistion your 1st order had sucssefully hedged.
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Crazyskier
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This is the only conclusion that I can imagine in reality. It is of course possible that I double-clicked on the green-up button on the grid, but as others have commented on this thread, it really would be nice to have a setting option that PREVENTS any green-up / red-up that can increase liability - the absolute reverse of what's intended.Dallas wrote:It might also be worth pointing out something about the effects of the IR delay and refresh rates which is not just applicble to this thread but is something alot of people probebly fall victim to at some point.
Most likely if trading IR you have the refresh set to 200ms which means its getting updates 5 times per seconds from Betfair.
You place your 1st order (back,lay or hedge) and dont see it appear in the market you watch the prices change and refresh 4 times and thinking it has nt worked you click for a 2nd time then instantly on the next refresh you see the order in the market and think "ah done it its worked this time" when in fact this was your 1st order appearing after betfairs 1 sec delay and in another second your 2nd order will also hit the market but you have often turned your attension away at this point thinking you have achived what you intended and dont always relise about this 2nd bet until after the event has finished meaning you now have double the liablity or have just unhedged a poistion your 1st order had sucssefully hedged.
I repeat, neither Betfair's own cash-in option or any other bot software I've tried in-play has ever resulted in losing more than my original liability and I suggest it's something that really needs looking at.
Thanks to all that have taken time to comment and offer advice. I shall try to minimise use of green up all unless the odds are fairly stable, ie below 60% of the race being run...
As someone who trades cricket, and so a lot of two horse races, I too have noticed that the Green-up function works in mysterious ways. I'll happily use it if I have traded only one horse (team) but in other situations expect that it will give me a sub-optimal return, or on occasion a position that is worse than my current minumum result.
The attached file shows a three horse race (Test match) where the draw is also a runner. It shows that while my worst outcome is to lose £29.30, Green-up would cheerfully exchange that for a loss of £40.65 against each runner. That's the outcome it offers - not the result of applying the function in a volatile market. It's a screen I copied last night - I coud provide something similar from each time I trade.
Greening up on markets with three or more runners will always have some complexity, especially in running. I wonder, Peter Webb, whether it might though be possible to add a very simple alternative Green-up system for two horse markets, that the user culd select as an option. It wouuld involve (no doubt with a few complications) a simple single trade on the favourite. No doubt this would sometimes provide unexpected or inferior results, but it would make life easier for me and I would value it.
I'm happy to discuss of course, if this is feasible. If it exists already I'm delighted and please would you point me to it!
The attached file shows a three horse race (Test match) where the draw is also a runner. It shows that while my worst outcome is to lose £29.30, Green-up would cheerfully exchange that for a loss of £40.65 against each runner. That's the outcome it offers - not the result of applying the function in a volatile market. It's a screen I copied last night - I coud provide something similar from each time I trade.
Greening up on markets with three or more runners will always have some complexity, especially in running. I wonder, Peter Webb, whether it might though be possible to add a very simple alternative Green-up system for two horse markets, that the user culd select as an option. It wouuld involve (no doubt with a few complications) a simple single trade on the favourite. No doubt this would sometimes provide unexpected or inferior results, but it would make life easier for me and I would value it.
I'm happy to discuss of course, if this is feasible. If it exists already I'm delighted and please would you point me to it!
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