General discussion : Jockeys Playing It Cool On The Bridle

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Derek27
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Location: UK

Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:10 pm

I don't regard running a horse that's not fully fit, on the wrong going or trip, as any form of fiddling. As you alluded to horses can't be at peak fitness throughout the season, trainers need to get a run into them and can't control the weather.

When I gambled I focused on the higher class races but even if there is a lot of fiddling in low grade racing (personally I think there's more paranoia), with overrounds as tight as they are, it should still be possible to profit.

What really beats me is that people betting on horse racing for years get angry when they think the horse thay backed is a non-trier but carry on betting as though it's just a one-off - until it happens again!

Either stop betting on the sport or accept you're betting on the horse's connections trying to win as well as the horse winning.

Anna List
Posts: 143
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:49 am

Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:35 pm

Derek27 wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:10 pm
I don't regard running a horse that's not fully fit, on the wrong going or trip, as any form of fiddling. As you alluded to horses can't be at peak fitness throughout the season, trainers need to get a run into them and can't control the weather.

When I gambled I focused on the higher class races but even if there is a lot of fiddling in low grade racing (personally I think there's more paranoia), with overrounds as tight as they are, it should still be possible to profit.

What really beats me is that people betting on horse racing for years get angry when they think the horse thay backed is a non-trier but carry on betting as though it's just a one-off - until it happens again!

Either stop betting on the sport or accept you're betting on the horse's connections trying to win as well as the horse winning.
So you have a horse which you know only just gets 7F and you decide to run him in a 12F race and you consider that it isn't fiddling? Hmmm, interesting. :o

Trainers generally know which ground their horses act on and which they don't. Yes, the going can change between declaration and the race. Sometimes, the going can change during the day. Trainers are able to withdraw their horses because of ground concerns. When a trainer deliberately runs his horse on unsuitable ground, you don't consider that is fiddling. Hmmm, interesting. :o

When a horse isn't fit and the trainer runs him you don't considered this is fiddling. Hmmm, interesting. :o

Some horses suit certain tracks and some are more suited by others. You don't consider that when a trainer deliberately runs a horse at a track that is unsuitable that this isn't fiddling? Hmmm, interesting. :o

I know of a horse that was 'cleaned out' on Monday morning and supposedly put on the 'easy list' for a couple of weeks before resuming light training. I know because the owner was there when the vet administered the drugs. The horse ran at Pontefract on the following Friday. The poor horse finished a distant last. Do you consider that fiddling ?

Well, sir, all I can say is that all is well with racing and fiddling doesn't exist. :lol:

Oh, for the record: If I bet and the horse doesn't do as expected and I lose, I don't bitch and moan. It's the cost of doing business. I consider it no one else's fault but mine.

BTW, I mostly lay and try and spot fiddled horses out of which I 'don't do too badly'. If the sport were clean, I doubt I'd make a Sou.

mhorro
Posts: 112
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:16 pm
Location: Cheshire

Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:46 pm

Is any sport not corrupt nowadays?

Were money is involved corruption exists.

Hey Guys and Girls look at companies some of them are corrupt including financial institutions!

"Money makes the world go round how true that is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

My view on gambling ( not trading has changed in the last 3 years and even more since I retired as I have more time to watch races ).

I used to own a couple of good horses and used to ride horses as well so I do know something about them.

I owned a successull tipping company which I had weekly full page spreads in the racing post and weekender and realised after 3 years that only a very few clients/customers really had the mental soundness to make money!

The BHB should clamp down on non triers in horse racing.

I heard a great saying about horse racing years ago!

"Most people look at the horses that wewre in front of theirs but it's the horses that finished behind theirs they need to worry about!!!!"

Thanks for the comments.

:)

Anna List
Posts: 143
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:49 am

Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:16 pm

mhorro wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:46 pm
Is any sport not corrupt nowadays?

Were money is involved corruption exists.

Hey Guys and Girls look at companies some of them are corrupt including financial institutions!

"Money makes the world go round how true that is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

My view on gambling ( not trading has changed in the last 3 years and even more since I retired as I have more time to watch races ).

I used to own a couple of good horses and used to ride horses as well so I do know something about them.

I owned a successull tipping company which I had weekly full page spreads in the racing post and weekender and realised after 3 years that only a very few clients/customers really had the mental soundness to make money!

The BHB should clamp down on non triers in horse racing.

I heard a great saying about horse racing years ago!

"Most people look at the horses that wewre in front of theirs but it's the horses that finished behind theirs they need to worry about!!!!"

Thanks for the comments.

:)
:D

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SeaHorseRacing
Posts: 2625
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 7:06 pm

Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:15 pm

Really interesting comments.

When I look for horses to bet, I only consider two main aims... Its speed rating, and whether today is the "day".

My selection either runs very well and trades low in running or runs absolute shockers. rarely they run in-between. The ones that run shockers are horses being fiddled that I called but were fiddle again.

Especially this time of year, spend most of my time watching racing rather than trading, however... Cheltenham soon!! :D

When I took up trading some time ago I learned that winning even from betting is not actually that I hard. Ive hit some big winning bets over the years but 3 years ago turned up to learn to trade with nothing to show for it. If people just learned discipline, learn how to stake so many punters would be winners. They really would.

I mean it isnt difficult. Dont bet on horses that are over priced. I also think it is considerably harder to tell whether an Even money favouirte should be 4/6 or 6/4 and much easier to spot a 5/1 horse who should be 2/1.
If you stay away from Shorties and longer prices I dont think you can go to wrong. If the horse you fancy is 10/1 Just dont back it if could easily be priced 20/1. All that requires is discipline.

I have missed tipping a lot winners here just because of that, but they are losers long term.
Last edited by SeaHorseRacing on Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Derek27
Posts: 2869
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:44 am
Location: UK

Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:16 pm

Anna List wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:35 pm
So you have a horse which you know only just gets 7F and you decide to run him in a 12F race and you consider that it isn't fiddling? Hmmm, interesting. :o
One of the golden rules to betting is to understand the rules! People can complain about horses running over wrong distances until they're blue in the face, but if you're betting on a sport, you bet according to the rules as they are - not as you would like them to be. Form books are free these days so there is no excuse for anybody to back a sprinter running over two miles and say they didn't know it was a sprinter!

Trainers are sometimes called into the stewards room to explain a horses performance but I would not like to see the day where they are called in to explain every minor abnormality.
Anna List wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:35 pm
Trainers generally know which ground their horses act on and which they don't. Yes, the going can change between declaration and the race. Sometimes, the going can change during the day. Trainers are able to withdraw their horses because of ground concerns. When a trainer deliberately runs his horse on unsuitable ground, you don't consider that is fiddling. Hmmm, interesting. :o
If we have a long wet spring/summer/winter, a trainer may have absolutely no choice but to run a horse on ground softer than ideal! Running a soft ground horse on fast ground is potentially dangerous for the horse, in which case the fiddling issue is irrelevant, the horses welfare is more important.
Anna List wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:35 pm
When a horse isn't fit and the trainer runs him you don't considered this is fiddling. Hmmm, interesting. :o
Depends what you mean by fit?

Some horses are easy to get fit at home. Some horses are not good workers. Big horses or lazy horses are often harder to get fit and often need a race to get fully fit. If a horse is grossly unfit and not capable of running to anywhere near its best, the horse and its trainer can fall fowl of the 'schooling in public' rule, but other than that it's perfectly acceptable to run a horse that's not fully fit. In fact, it's impossible for anyone, man or animal, to be at peak fitness for months on end.
Anna List wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:35 pm
Some horses suit certain tracks and some are more suited by others. You don't consider that when a trainer deliberately runs a horse at a track that is unsuitable that this isn't fiddling? Hmmm, interesting. :o
Are you seriously suggesting that a top notch two-miler (Dato Star, Direct Route, etc) shouldn't run at the Cheltenham festival because it's not suited to Cheltenham?

If that's not fiddling, what's wrong with a trainer sending a horse to an £10,000 handicap hurdle at Market Rasen instead of a £5,000 race at a more suitable course?

Just because a horse isn't suited to a course, it doesn't mean it can't win - it just means it's disadvantaged and sometimes the disadvantage is marginal.

When you used the word deliberately, if you mean with no other intention than to reduce the horses chances of winning, that would be fiddling but only the trainer would know that. If people deduce that that's why he's running the horse, all it really means is that they can't figure out what intentions the trainer has.
Anna List wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:35 pm
I know of a horse that was 'cleaned out' on Monday morning and supposedly put on the 'easy list' for a couple of weeks before resuming light training. I know because the owner was there when the vet administered the drugs. The horse ran at Pontefract on the following Friday. The poor horse finished a distant last. Do you consider that fiddling ?
I'm afraid I can't comment on that without viewing the race, interviewing the owner and trainer concerned and carrying out a thorough investigation, and the BHA won't pay me to do that. ;)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not doubting you, but one of the reasons so many people believe race-fixing is so widespread is that they believe anything they hear, or perhaps, anything they want to hear, that may justify why they're losing money.
Anna List wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:35 pm
Oh, for the record: If I bet and the horse doesn't do as expected and I lose, I don't bitch and moan. It's the cost of doing business. I consider it no one else's fault but mine.
Same here. I feel sorry for the jockey who rode a 12 furlong race at Wolverhampton thinking the race is 4 furlongs, and the one that jumped the last at Fakenham 20 lengths clear but took the wrong course and jumped the fence just before the winning post. :lol:

They deserved the official punishment they got, but they didn't deserve the stick they received from people who made their own decision to back them!

Edit: If you back a horse that loses, it's nobody else's fault, but it's not your fault either - it's not actually a fault!

As you suggested, losses are what your accountant would call 'cost of sales'. Some people get excited when they win and despondent when they lose, but if they sold an item on ebay for a profit they wouldn't have been despondent about having to pay money for it in the first place, even though it's the same thing. :)
Last edited by Derek27 on Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

Derek27
Posts: 2869
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Location: UK

Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:20 pm

mhorro wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:46 pm
I owned a successull tipping company which I had weekly full page spreads in the racing post and weekender and realised after 3 years that only a very few clients/customers really had the mental soundness to make money!
I'm a bit confused by that. Surely the clients were just taking your successful companies tips, in which case no mental soundness would be required (other than enough to fill in a betting slip) ?

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SeaHorseRacing
Posts: 2625
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 7:06 pm

Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:25 pm

How to change racing.

It is very simple.

Allow pace makers to be run in certain races. For example- Trainers get paid to enter pace makers into a race, The betting ignores pacemakers and we cannot bet on pace makers. If pacemaker wins- it is removed from final result.

Allow trial races for horses who need to get fit, no betting allowed. So no UK bookie or exchange is allowed to price the race and any horse can do as they please.

All trainers must declare intentions 24 hours before a race. "My horse is usually a front runner, were poorly drawn going to take it easy." If they are allowing the jockey to decide, jockey must state.

Allow the public access, to racing weights, and veterinary records.

Allow public access to a diet and work out guide. Nothing complex.

Week 1 feb- Light fast work- 50% hard feed 50% hay.

Week 2 of Feb- Longer track work 75% feed 25% hay.

Nothing to complex, nothing too demanding, keeps the sport clean.

All the bookies would need to do is adjust their odds.

Derek27
Posts: 2869
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:44 am
Location: UK

Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:31 pm

SeaHorseRacing wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:15 pm
Dont bet on horses that are over priced. I also think it is considerably harder to tell whether an Even money favouirte should be 4/6 or 6/4 and much easier to spot a 5/1 horse who should be 2/1.
(I think you meant don't bet on horses that are under priced). ;)

I couldn't agree more with the rest of that comment. I used to draft a tissue for each race I was interested in, but for the tissue of prices I would be willing to back at, I was always cautious with short priced runners. As a result I hardly ever backed favourites. Short priced favourites require larger stakes so it's much riskier and harder to achieve consistent profits. But there are far more overlooked horses at double figures that have a 5 or 6/1 chance.

My sole odds-on bet of 2000 was Giant's Causeway in the QEII at 4/6. It was one of the few occasions he was beaten. :lol:
Last edited by Derek27 on Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:38 am, edited 3 times in total.

Derek27
Posts: 2869
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:44 am
Location: UK

Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:43 pm

SeaHorseRacing wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:25 pm
How to change racing.

It is very simple.

Allow pace makers to be run in certain races. For example- Trainers get paid to enter pace makers into a race, The betting ignores pacemakers and we cannot bet on pace makers. If pacemaker wins- it is removed from final result.

Allow trial races for horses who need to get fit, no betting allowed. So no UK bookie or exchange is allowed to price the race and any horse can do as they please.

All trainers must declare intentions 24 hours before a race. "My horse is usually a front runner, were poorly drawn going to take it easy." If they are allowing the jockey to decide, jockey must state.

Allow the public access, to racing weights, and veterinary records.

Allow public access to a diet and work out guide. Nothing complex.

Week 1 feb- Light fast work- 50% hard feed 50% hay.

Week 2 of Feb- Longer track work 75% feed 25% hay.

Nothing to complex, nothing too demanding, keeps the sport clean.

All the bookies would need to do is adjust their odds.
You're not being serious are you?

Horse racing isn't just for bettors, you have to cater for the owners as well. Connections are entitled to keep their tactics for a race secret, just like football managers, and chess players don't need to declare their first move for a game in advance. If every trainer said "we're gonna go off like a scolded cat", does that mean the jockeys are obliged to carry out those instructions? Once the stalls open, the jockey has to decide what to do and it's only right that he's allowed to throw the instructions out of the window as the race unfolds.

Does anyone really want to know what a horse is eating and who exactly is going to enforce the trainers declaration ?

As for trial races, that is an interesting idea that works well in Australia. Winx took part in a trial over the weekend (they're called barrier trials) and finished midfield. The interesting thing about them is that you have some horses that are reaching peak fitness working against much better horses who are given a easier workout; there's no expectation and you get a chance to see how well horses are, with full sectional times.

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