Overcoming gambling addiction

[marketraisen]

I haven't been following this thread, and it's quite difficult to follow, but do you not see an exaggeration in your analogy?

I don't think its a crazy analogy, without being rude I earn enough money in work that the £20 bet by the poker player isnt far off being £20 for me. With winter coming I could add half again to what I've earned already this year doing industrial heating. The company I work for doesnt mess around with peoples home boiler under the stairs, we keep aircraft hangers, cargo ships and factories warm/cold.

Addressed this in the thread, I've no will to make any of this any sort of income I rely on or anything, its more of a challenging hobby and most people jumped the gun assuming 'gambling addiction' meant something far darker, which tbf isnt a terrible assumption to default to and the intentions have all been good.

I gave myself a target of £3000 it had to earn itself from £1000, the silly bets started causing mad swings for a couple of months to the point I had to keep depositing replacement money into the account to get it back up to 1k, was just frustrating rather than life threatening.

Anyway.. on the road again up, no silly bets besides a £20 cricket bet thats fine and unrelated to the spreadsheet games in terms of seeing won money as 'free' money. Its the anticipation and fomo thats exciting, rather than winning or losing money, been trying various things to replace it but this thread has really really helped me get it under control.

[Derek27]

Gambling with money made trading, tell me how to stop this please, I need help!
...
Am I doomed?

...I earn enough money in work that the £20 bet by the poker player isnt far off being £20 for me. With winter coming I could add half again to what I've earned already this year doing industrial heating. The company I work for doesnt mess around with peoples home boiler under the stairs, we keep aircraft hangers, cargo ships and factories warm/cold.

Do you understand why I'm confused by this thread?

You started desperately asking for help and feeling doomed - yet you're working for a company that doesn't mess around with home boilers but deals with heating aircraft hangers and cargo ships and don't need to worry about how much you lose gambling because it's £20 to you?

When somebody on this forum asks for advice about gambling or trading, it's completely irrelevant how much money they earn outside trading. Somebody earning £1M a year in their day job may start learning to trade as a hobby with £2 stakes, and they're likely to receive the same response as they would if they were potless!

All I'm saying is that if I win £500 a week on horse racing and blow £1000 a week on football, I could think of myself as a successful horse racing trader, or I could think of myself as an unsuccessful trader. The way I perceive myself is probably more important than what I've actually done!

[marketraisen]

Do you understand why I'm confused by this thread?

Yeah, your own interpretation of the word doomed.

You could say that Man United are 'doomed' this year but will still finish 30 points clear of relegation, nobody is going to die, they arent really 'doomed'. The word doom or doomed is used when foreseeing an inevitable negative outcome, yes its emotive but thats subjective, being doomed doesnt mean anything tragic on its own. It was also a question, I never started this thread saying "I'M DOOMED!", I assumed this was the right place to ask the question regarding the mixing of normal aimless punts and trying to be more methodical and I was right, theres others who have had to change their mindset from blind punter to something more calculated, for me its to stop seeing automated bets specifically as being 'free' money and others have replied saying they went through the same.

When somebody on this forum asks for advice about gambling or trading, it's completely irrelevant how much money they earn outside trading.

Its relevant when the advice is to quit gambling because of spewy football or tennis bets, its counter to my automation goals but it isnt about to send me to the food bank. The advice you'd give somebody losing £20 a day on poker while on benefits is a bit different to somebody working and losing £20 a day.

All I'm saying is that if I win £500 a week on horse racing and blow £1000 a week on football, I could think of myself as a successful horse racing trader, or I could think of myself as an unsuccessful trader. The way I perceive myself is probably more important than what I've actually done!

Its true, you would be a successful horse trader, just because you were losing on football it doesnt mean you should chuck it all in. If you were mental enough to be having such wildly different results from different markets and wanted help to stop the losing ones, you should definitely start a thread on here asking for advice the same as I have here.

[marketraisen]

Heres my updated chart, blue what the balance wouldve been without gambling starting from the point its possible to document and the red my actual balance, even after a few hundred quid of deposits to keep topping it up.
Before the graph it was so much of a mess that its impossible to document, manually stopping trades etc, it wasnt until a few weeks before posting that I stopped betting on the horses so the results became trackable. Any automated gains were being punted on all sorts of crap, now my balance is just doing its thing on its own without me killing it.

I'd have hit my targets well before now though but I'm over my initial frustration I felt when starting this.

[ShaunWhite]

This thread popped up on a Saturday afternoon and a whole host of people who trade for a living, and for whom Saturday is their biggest pay day, downed tools and came to your assistance because they really understand how devistating gambling addiction can be.

In no time at all you were comparing it to people playing bingo on holiday and now saying it's no big deal because it's only spare £20 notes. If you have spare cash, maybe a suitable gesture would be to send few of those easy come easy go 20s here https://www.gamblersanonymous.org.uk/

That chart is pointless, either your gambling is part of your trading and therefore the only line that matters is the red one. Or your gambling is part of your leisure and the only line that matters to your trading is the blue one. Derek couldn't be any clearer, he's asking where and why you're drawing the line.

[Derek27]

Heres my updated chart, blue what the balance wouldve been without gambling starting from the point its possible to document and the red my actual balance, even after a few hundred quid of deposits to keep topping it up.
Before the graph it was so much of a mess that its impossible to document, manually stopping trades etc, it wasnt until a few weeks before posting that I stopped betting on the horses so the results became trackable. Any automated gains were being punted on all sorts of crap, now my balance is just doing its thing on its own without me killing it.

I'd have hit my targets well before now though but I'm over my initial frustration I felt when starting this.

I would be a multi-millionaire if I just placed my winning trades and not my losing ones, perhaps I should produce a chart of that!!!

What's the point in posting your balance after you've deposited a few hundred quid of deposits to keep topping it up???

Your balance is completely meaningless, it's your profit/loss that's important.

[Derek27]

Its true, you would be a successful horse trader, just because you were losing on football it doesnt mean you should chuck it all in. If you were mental enough to be having such wildly different results from different markets and wanted help to stop the losing ones, you should definitely start a thread on here asking for advice the same as I have here.

Sorry Mark, but if I was losing more money on football than I was making on horse racing and couldn't stop myself from betting on football, I would be financially better off if I chucked it ALL in, and that's exactly what I would try to do!

[marketraisen]

This thread popped up on a Saturday afternoon and a whole host of people who trade for a living, and for whom Saturday is their biggest pay day, downed tools and came to your assistance because they really understand how devistating gambling addiction can be.

I know how devastating gambling addiction can be aswell and lived through it in my early 20s, when somebody really shouldve told me to put the brakes on.

The advice on this thread has helped me, I've thanked everyone who left a message, I've said multiple times how appreciative of everyones good intentions I am. Attempting to lay some sort of guilt on me for taking hypothetical money out of somebodies pockets as they came to post is totally uncalled for, really unfair and a bizarre leap to make. Should everyone that gets a reply on here during a Saturday afternoon apologise or something? If any of the original folk who replied during racing hours on that day want to step forward they'll have their apology but they should know I was genuinely in need of help even if it wasnt life threatening. Theres also really no need for the flippant remarks about 'easy come easy go 20s', I havent typed that once in this thread unless you can maybe cut and paste it for me? I've said multiple times the small loses add up to hundreds and then thousands, I've already said that over the years I've lost enough money to buy a house.

That chart is pointless

Its not, it may be pointless to post here but then you could say that about all charts posted here, the differentiation between theoretical profits and real ones is a visual aide for me to focus, this thread for me has been therapeutic in taking steps to cure my problem and charting my own progress (I have more) is part of it. The chart is something I can pin to my wall, its something I can look at on my computer, its a reminder of what not to do. Theres sections of this board dedicated to reporting and dissecting outcomes to streamline results, its why theres a practice mode in BA, everyone is encouraged to test and gather as much data as is reasonably possible and basing future decisions from it. Thats what it is for me, its seeing what a terrible gambler I am, its stark and frustrating to see and its doing its job.

I'm not sure how we have gotten to this point but people are seeing what they want to see and are ignoring whats being typed, I get its an emotive topic and people have their entrenched responses though.

Derek said he hadnt read through the thread and I said I dont blame him, all I've done is repeat myself since, if he had read the thread he probably wouldnt have even replied to offer advice.

[marketraisen]

I would be a multi-millionaire if I just placed my winning trades and not my losing ones, perhaps I should produce a chart of that!!!

I think you've cracked the code

See my last message, infact read any of them I've talked about my gambling history, when things arent working we first look to see if we can change them for the better and if we cant, then we chuck it in.

If youre losing on football but winning on racing, throwing in the towel completely would leave you better off than doing both but you'd be better off again if you just stopped wasting money on the football and concentrated on the racing. Maybe if the punter losing overall made some silly graphs showing where you'd be with and without the football betting it would help with that end?

For me, giving up the stupid sports bets and concentrating on automation is obviously what I need to do, throwing in the towel totally is a long way off, maybe itll come one day.

[Derek27]

Derek said he hadnt read through the thread and I said I dont blame him, all I've done is repeat myself since, if he had read the thread he probably wouldnt have even replied to offer advice.

The Today's Racing thread is over 5 years old and has over 15,000 posts. It's not necessary to read it in full to reply to a single post!

Charts can be useful, all we're saying is that particular chart you posted is meaningless.

[Derek27]

If youre losing on football but winning on racing, throwing in the towel completely would leave you better off than doing both but you'd be better off again if you just stopped wasting money on the football and concentrated on the racing. Maybe if the punter losing overall made some silly graphs showing where you'd be with and without the football betting it would help with that end?

For me, giving up the stupid sports bets and concentrating on automation is obviously what I need to do, throwing in the towel totally is a long way off, maybe itll come one day.

Personally, and I really mean personally, if I was unable to stop betting and losing money on football I would question whether, or perhaps conclude that, I'm not in control of my gambling and aim to stop altogether. If I can't stop gambling on football I can't see how I could have any confidence that I wouldn't do anything daft trading horse racing. If a trade goes against me and I need to bail out for a loss, if I don't even have the self-control to not place a bet on Arsenal beating Chelsea, I couldn't possibly have any confidence of acting appropriately in a difficult trading situation.

What I really don't understand is, if you're making good money at work and trading/gambling is just a leisure activity, and you can afford to lose what you do lose, why are you so concerned about it to ask for help?

[marketraisen]

all we're saying is that particular chart you posted is meaningless.

I disagree. Though the numbers are irrelevant, charts are visual aides or else we would document everything in lists of numbers, I use it as a reminder of what not to do.

I could just as easily print off a betfair statement and pin that to my wall as a reminder of past stupid bets or trades (gamblers have a funny habit of not remembering certain things) but a more visual representation hits home.

This next chart doesnt have any gambling related info in it but its just as useful to keep in mind.

[marketraisen]

why are you so concerned about it to ask for help?

Because of what has happened in the past, wrote a bitof my gambling history earlier in the thread, basically it followed-

-12-14 years
Lost thousands betting everything, including poker, casinos, racing. Had debt and all the associated problem gambler issues
-2015-2016
Stopped being an idiot and started winning, totally changed every habit I previously had, which wasnt hard when I realised that predicting the future was not the right approach but predicting prices instead.
-2017
Banned from everywhere except Betfair, start gambling like a fool and losing, had no taste for it at all so started looking into trading. Didnt gamble or trade for a full year until
-2018
Came back to trading but found I was getting too invested in what I was doing, so started looking at automation to get me away from the computer. Trialled an idea I tested in 2017 for a few months over the summer, late August decided to let it go in the wild with some money, with the goal being to get away from the computer screen totally so I didnt get sucked back in.
-Last couple of months
It didnt work, I was just earning more money to bet with, didnt care about depositing more in as I felt confident the automation would get it back for me, started viewing the money as being 'free'
-Started This thread
One particularly frustrating day I spent a few hundred betting on all sorts of rubbish, decided to come and ask for help on how to stop seeing trading/automated profits as being 'free' money.

The reason I was concerned about it is its obviously a very dangerous mindset given my past, it was viewing money as being 'free' that was the problem, I had already stopped the full on degenerate and life ruining gambling in 2015.

The topic does say Overcoming Gambling Addiction but the first line in the opening post is
"Gambling with money made trading, tell me how to stop this please, I need help!", the replies since have either been to the thread title or the opening line of the post, both with obviously different responses. It is an addiction but isnt what people think it is, I think I shouldve just written less overall

"I'll either be- cool, I've made £40 in the past hours racing, I might aswell have a "free" go on some other sport or oh crap, I keep getting stopped and Ive lost some money, I'll just check again in an hour..... so I am betting winnings but accepting trading loses without feeling like I need to chase them"

Besides for now its a bit mute, the advice Ive had in this thread and elsewhere has helped, particularly the advice they give to poker players, theres mountains of material to help those guys out on youtube or forums. A big problem for otherwise profitable poker players is getting too loose when theyve had a good win and thinking theyre invincible, the advice they get on changing their mindset can be applied elsewhere and touch wood, its worked so far.

[Derek27]

all we're saying is that particular chart you posted is meaningless.

I disagree. Though the numbers are irrelevant, charts are visual aides or else we would document everything in lists of numbers, I use it as a reminder of what not to do.

I could just as easily print off a betfair statement and pin that to my wall as a reminder of past stupid bets or trades (gamblers have a funny habit of not remembering certain things) but a more visual representation hits home.

This next chart doesnt have any gambling related info in it but its just as useful to keep in mind.

A chart is useless unless it is based on meaningful data. You could post a chart of your height against your age as you were growing, but it's useless for trading purposes. Shaun has already explained why the earlier chart you posted is meaningless. I would say it's dream against reality!

What you posted in your last post isn't a chart but pictures. I'm afraid I don't see things from your perspective and can't see what's useful about a picture of money in flames, but that's just me. If it helps you then by all means, keep it on your bedroom wall.

[Derek27]

-Last couple of months
It didnt work, I was just earning more money to bet with, didnt care about depositing more in as I felt confident the automation would get it back for me, started viewing the money as being 'free'
-Started This thread
One particularly frustrating day I spent a few hundred betting on all sorts of rubbish, decided to come and ask for help on how to stop seeing trading/automated profits as being 'free' money.

It might help and clarify things if you can honestly answer this question.

IS GAMBLING A LEISURE ACTIVITY OR A SERIOUS QUEST TO MAKE MONEY?

If it's a leisure activity then you don't need help - just enjoy it as you're earning enough money to afford it.

However, I sense you're not enjoying it and getting frustrated with your betting because it's not going well, in which case it would be a serious attempt to make money.

All I can really say is that you haven't a cat in hells chance of making money betting if you're unable to stop betting on, as you put it, all sorts of rubbish, with no +ve. I'm a successful trader but it would only take one minute a month to blow a months profits, if I lost control of myself for 60 seconds!

You're struggling to get to grips with gambling and clearly putting in a lot of effort, keeping data and producing charts. What I'm struggling to understand is, why?

You're making enough money providing heating for factories and aircraft hangers, yet gambling successfully and making money from it is so important to you?