Courtsiding Cheaters?

[fuzzer54]

To be a cheat you have to break the rules. No one is breaking any rules as far as I can see. And anyone who believes there is any such thing as a level playing field in any financial market is living in cloud cuckoo land.

[LeTiss]

To be a cheat you have to break the rules. No one is breaking any rules as far as I can see. And anyone who believes there is any such thing as a level playing field in any financial market is living in cloud cuckoo land.

I agree with that totally. I'm not sure what people are getting so worked up about, because until they start trying to manipulate results, all they are doing is taking advantage of technology available. As Andy mentioned in the other thread, courtsiders are no different to traders using a VPS connection.

MM seems particularly angry, but if he's a successful trader then he's making money at the expense of other BF users, he's taking advantage of their mistakes and poor decisions. If people didn't leave money sat in a market where others are holding the aces, then the courtsiders would have no money to mop up.

[MarketTrader]

This article seems to imply it is against the rules:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tennis ... kland.html

The Tennis Integrity Unit launched an investigation on Tuesday after a spectator, suspected of illegal betting, was ejected from the Heineken Open tournament in Auckland.

This page on the Australian Open website talks about zero tolerance - Illegal gambling and match-fixing

http://www.australianopen.com/en_AU/eve ... guide.html

http://www.australianopen.com/en_AU/eve ... guide.html

Then this page says the words 'illegal betting' - http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tennis/7241383.stm

The expulsions are the first cases in tennis's new anti-corruption policies to clamp down on illegal betting.

Have I missed the point here? Or are we able to pick and choose the rules we follow?

[steven1976]

Someone posted somewhere that it is illegal within australia to bet on inplay events I think.

[CaerMyrddin]

So, if you bet against a courtsider you are certain you will lose? Sure... Having no value is one thing, being a certain loser a different one!

So, if courtsiders are cheaters, those betting against them aren't just utterly stupid?

[MarketTrader]

Someone posted somewhere that it is illegal within australia to bet on inplay events I think.

Fair enough. I guess it's all ok then.

I'll just leave my ethics at the door and smash up my moral compass.

[SBW077]

I remember reading on a blog somewhere that the live streams for horse racing on BF video are only 2 or 3 seconds behind real time. If this is indeed possible with today's technology, why is there so much more lag when streaming from tennis venues? Even the most remote tournament should not result in any more than one extra second of latency, bringing us to 3 to 4 seconds maximum delay, rather than the 6 to 10 seconds we're subjected to.

I would love nothing more than to see a more level playing field, and frankly I'm happy that even the less obvious courtsiders (mobile hidden in pocket) are increasingly spotted and thrown out of various events. Courtsiding is no different than collusion in poker games IMO; they do nothing but hurt liquidity by creating an increasingly well-known disincentive for small players and potential new players to get involved in the markets.

[mpendle]

I personally see nothing wrong with them. They pay large amounts of money to get the "feed" that they get. Anyone else can do the same if they want. It is no different to someone watching Racing on Channel 4 compared to someone else watching on ATR. You can choose how you receive your information and these people pay a little more for a better feed.

I think you will also find that without them, the tennis betting markets would be empty. They market make and give every other punter liquidity to match bets against.

I like the fact that someone has likened it to financial markets. There are financial institutions that spend millions to get information <10ms quicker than others. Surely this is just the same?

I just make sure, as Peter has mentioned recently, that I only bet at times where I am not vulnerable (sit downs etc).

[mpendle]

I think it needs to be made clear that this doesn't just happen in Tennis and Horse Racing. It happens in every sport that is offered in play on Betfair. Cricket, Football, you name it.

The point is, is that if you didn't have courtsiders, you would still have people fighting over technology and feeds to get the information first so that they can profit from those people who even despite seeing the point is over decide to leave their bet or forget to cancel. There will always be people leaving bad value bets in the market and therefore someone will always be able to take that bet. If they aren't allowed to do this courtside, there will just be another arms race, just not courtside. Again one person will pay the money and be first to match these bets. Are they cheating, no. They are just profiting from other peoples mistakes, in the same way that anyone who is making money on Betfair is doing.

As posted on the other thread.

[marqasa]

I think the problem is that if you say court-siders are cheating then you have to say that people with the fastest TV pictures are also cheating.

If Virgin Media is faster than Freeview are people who use Virgin Media cheating? Or anyone who uses a TV feed over a Befair live stream?

Eventually you have to go as far as saying, unless we're all getting the same info at exactly the same time someone must be cheating.

In my mind no-one is cheating, it's just a case of knowing when you have an advantage over others and when you need to be careful because others probably have an advantage over you.

Isn't that what trading's all about anyway!?

[dzemro]

Interesting thread. Wondering how those courtside people could trade from live event when they dont have broadband connection there... I think 3G is not enough, they would be slow... And regarding this topic,they are not cheaters, they use modern technology and faster access, there will probably never be unified way to get picture to everybody in the world at the same time...

[Nero Tulip]

I subscribe to the idea that it's along the same lines as economic news breaking in the financial markets. Who gets the data first, has an advantage. I'm not against it, and I have been sniped many hundreds of times, costing me probably tens of thousands.

You do have to ask what is in Betfair's interests though, and that is probably to find a way of levelling the playing field that does not make liquidity and matching decrease. This isn't easily accomplished, but they're making a good stab at it with the video feeds that are 3 seconds behind live.

Making the delay bigger is detrimental, it will lower the amounts matched and make trading very difficult for anyone not courtside - Monfil's is virtually throwing the ball up for the next serve before the previous point has finished sometimes.

Another suggestion was to some how show the incoming bets that are currently in the 5 second delay. This sounds appealing, but would lead to a lot more cancelling and fewer bets matched, BF HQ probably dislike the idea.

[superfrank]

The solution in my view is to get rid of in-play market delays and suspensions entirely.
it's clear that the current situation does not protect those without fast pics/courtside info, so why not just make the markets free?
in financial trading the futures markets don't get suspended before key economic news announcements (and there are no delays). everyone accepts the risk and adjusts their strategies accordingly.
imo it would lead to more activity and volume which could only be a good thing for us (and Betfair).

[garfield]

By all means, do away with the time delay and suspensions I am sure within days you will be talking fondly of the good old delay and suspension days when you were not being taken to the cleaners and liquidity was much better because people were not worried about having their bets hoovered up by pitch/court/track side players

[superfrank]

By all means, do away with the time delay and suspensions I am sure within days you will be talking fondly of the good old delay and suspension days when you were not being taken to the cleaners and liquidity was much better because people were not worried about having their bets hoovered up by pitch/court/track side players

but that's my point, it happens anyway and delays only offer limited protection and therefore cannot be relied upon.

of course some strategies would have to be rethought, but on balance i'd rather trade in a real live market where i can submit and cancel orders without interference.

in pre-race trading if a horse plays up its price often drifts sharply - Betfair can't suspend markets for all events that might influence a price! it's a risk/opportunity that pre-race traders accept.

betfair could offer both managed and unmanaged (without delay) in-play markets?