Seeking Guidance on Refining My Football Scalping Strategy

Football, Soccer - whatever you call it. It is the beautiful game.
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beginnertrader
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2024 7:04 am

Hello everyone,

I'm reaching out to this esteemed community as I embark on a journey to refine my approach to scalping in football betting, specifically within the pre-game 1x2 market.
Despite dedicating considerable time to researching and applying various strategies, I find myself at a crossroads, seeking your wisdom and experience to guide me further.

Here's a brief overview of my current methodology:
  • Market Selection: My focus remains solely on the 1x2 market, engaging exclusively during the pre-game phase..
  • Volume Threshold: I participate in matches that have attracted at least £3,000 in matched bets, ensuring there's sufficient liquidity.
  • Timing: My entry window spans from 24 hours to 1 hour before kickoff, aiming to capitalise on the final odds adjustments.
  • Bet Placement: I employ a strategy targeting one tick change, placing back and lay bets simultaneously, with the lay bet positioned one tick below the back odds.
  • Exit Strategy: If my lay bet hasn't been matched by the start of the match, I exit the trade
Despite my adherence to this strategy, I can't shake the feeling that there's room for improvement. Emotional responses to unsuccessful trades occasionally lead to mistakes, underscoring the need for a more disciplined approach.

Specifically, I'm questioning the optimality of my entry and exit points:
  • Entry Timing: Is there a more strategic moment to enter the market, or is the timing less crucial than I currently believe?
  • Exit Strategy: Would adjusting my exit strategy to accept a one-tick loss, ensuring a minimal loss, be more prudent?
I've consumed virtually all the educational content available on this topic, yet I find myself seeking that additional, nuanced insight that only a community like this can offer.

If you could share your experiences, advice, or any strategies that have served you well, I would be immensely grateful. Your guidance could be the beacon that helps me navigate through these turbulent waters and steer towards a more disciplined, and hopefully, more successful scalping strategy.

Thank you!
Anbell
Posts: 2062
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:31 am

beginertrader wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2024 7:25 am
Hello everyone,

I'm reaching out to this esteemed community as I embark on a journey to refine my approach to scalping in football betting, specifically within the pre-game 1x2 market.
Despite dedicating considerable time to researching and applying various strategies, I find myself at a crossroads, seeking your wisdom and experience to guide me further.

Here's a brief overview of my current methodology:
  • Market Selection: My focus remains solely on the 1x2 market, engaging exclusively during the pre-game phase..
  • Volume Threshold: I participate in matches that have attracted at least £3,000 in matched bets, ensuring there's sufficient liquidity.
  • Timing: My entry window spans from 24 hours to 1 hour before kickoff, aiming to capitalise on the final odds adjustments.
  • Bet Placement: I employ a strategy targeting one tick change, placing back and lay bets simultaneously, with the lay bet positioned one tick below the back odds.
  • Exit Strategy: If my lay bet hasn't been matched by the start of the match, I exit the trade
Despite my adherence to this strategy, I can't shake the feeling that there's room for improvement. Emotional responses to unsuccessful trades occasionally lead to mistakes, underscoring the need for a more disciplined approach.

Specifically, I'm questioning the optimality of my entry and exit points:
  • Entry Timing: Is there a more strategic moment to enter the market, or is the timing less crucial than I currently believe?
  • Exit Strategy: Would adjusting my exit strategy to accept a one-tick loss, ensuring a minimal loss, be more prudent?
I've consumed virtually all the educational content available on this topic, yet I find myself seeking that additional, nuanced insight that only a community like this can offer.

If you could share your experiences, advice, or any strategies that have served you well, I would be immensely grateful. Your guidance could be the beacon that helps me navigate through these turbulent waters and steer towards a more disciplined, and hopefully, more successful scalping strategy.

Thank you!
Great first post!

Serious questions: Which AI bot did you use? What was your prompt?
(I dont bet much on football so I cant offer any substantive answers - sorry!)
User avatar
Kai
Posts: 6231
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:21 pm

Would be lovely indeed if humans could make such immaculate posts!

Why this market though? It has decent volume but it's not very liquid overall, so not very suitable for scalping specifically.
Michael5482
Posts: 1252
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:11 pm

Better off looking for bigger moves pre-kick off howver I'm more of a fundamnetal trader pre-kick off relying on team news, injuries, suspensions, manager press conferences etc It's basic but serves me well.

Be better off scalping in-play IMO Like most I started trying to predict what's going to happen (or rather what I wanted to happen would be a better way of putting it) over 45 or 90 mins of football with limited success then something clicked and I thought why don't I flip it round and try to be right for a small anount of time like 1 tick so I did exactly that, then built outover from there.

Scalping in play is a good place to start and see what happens in the markets, when is it most liquid, how events in the game effect the price, what is the price etc then you can start to see and pick up things like incorrect prices or moves and build confidence.
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beginnertrader
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2024 7:04 am

Anbell wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2024 9:06 am
Serious questions: Which AI bot did you use? What was your prompt?
(I dont bet much on football so I cant offer any substantive answers - sorry!)
Haha! I'm regularly using ChatGPT premium. I find it to do a much better than job than I do in relate to organizing unstructured thoughts into one organised frame.
I explained to it where I am, what I need and where i'm posting, and I asked to craft a post that will explain easily my situation.
User avatar
beginnertrader
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2024 7:04 am

Kai wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2024 9:13 am
Would be lovely indeed if humans could make such immaculate posts!

Why this market though? It has decent volume but it's not very liquid overall, so not very suitable for scalping specifically.
There is good chance that AI will just speak with other AIs in these forums very soon :)

That's a good question you ask about the market choice. I just picked it as it looked the most active whenever I looked at games.
Would love to get insights and recommandation about other markets.
I'm trying to crack one strategy and master it. Scalping was the most recommended one for newbies, and I just started playing with it.
User avatar
beginnertrader
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2024 7:04 am

Michael5482 wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2024 9:55 am
Better off looking for bigger moves pre-kick off howver I'm more of a fundamnetal trader pre-kick off relying on team news, injuries, suspensions, manager press conferences etc It's basic but serves me well.

Be better off scalping in-play IMO Like most I started trying to predict what's going to happen (or rather what I wanted to happen would be a better way of putting it) over 45 or 90 mins of football with limited success then something clicked and I thought why don't I flip it round and try to be right for a small anount of time like 1 tick so I did exactly that, then built outover from there.

Scalping in play is a good place to start and see what happens in the markets, when is it most liquid, how events in the game effect the price, what is the price etc then you can start to see and pick up things like incorrect prices or moves and build confidence.
The "click" you mentioned is exactly what I feel missing.
My concern with in-play is that I'm not educated enough to understand what the trend is. So I will bet very closely to change in trend and won't be able to get that desired tick.
Michael5482
Posts: 1252
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:11 pm

beginertrader wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2024 11:38 am
Michael5482 wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2024 9:55 am
Better off looking for bigger moves pre-kick off howver I'm more of a fundamnetal trader pre-kick off relying on team news, injuries, suspensions, manager press conferences etc It's basic but serves me well.

Be better off scalping in-play IMO Like most I started trying to predict what's going to happen (or rather what I wanted to happen would be a better way of putting it) over 45 or 90 mins of football with limited success then something clicked and I thought why don't I flip it round and try to be right for a small anount of time like 1 tick so I did exactly that, then built outover from there.

Scalping in play is a good place to start and see what happens in the markets, when is it most liquid, how events in the game effect the price, what is the price etc then you can start to see and pick up things like incorrect prices or moves and build confidence.
The "click" you mentioned is exactly what I feel missing.
My concern with in-play is that I'm not educated enough to understand what the trend is. So I will bet very closely to change in trend and won't be able to get that desired tick.
Why not record a game on tv, screen record the markets let's say Match Odds & Over/Under 2.5 (move to 3.5 after 2 goals etc) they'll be a time delay obvisuly but play them back in harmony. See how they react to on-field events even more so later on in the game, marry the two up, the market is just lots of people throwing their opinions about. Then look at a few more games. Time consuming I know but like everything is in life you only get out what your willing to put in and nothing is more true with Bertfair IMO

Most will swear by fast live images but I manage OK without them and can work with delayed pics (I think Derek manages OK without them) I let the market tell me what's happeing unless you have fast pics of course.

I'm not saying ths is the golden goose but to understand it you need to see it. Hopefully others will add there own advice and you can maybe take a little bit from everyone and move forward.
User avatar
Kai
Posts: 6231
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:21 pm

Well, scalping is deceptively simple, so I certainly understand the appeal!

But a difficult skill in reality IMHO, with a high ceiling, since it involves having to read the market and the order flow within it. Maybe it could work based on criteria alone but the hitrates wouldn't be optimal, judging by the questions below.

AI or no, would be a shame not to leave a bit of input since your post was so eloquently put together.
beginertrader wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2024 7:25 am
  • Market Selection: My focus remains solely on the 1x2 market, engaging exclusively during the pre-game phase..
Match Odds* market on the exchange, to avoid confusion. It's more than a pre-game phase though, the inplay market is a different beast. If you want to think in terms of phases then something like pre-teamnews, teamnews (where sudden price correction are likelier, with lineup leaks possible slightly earlier), post-teamnews phase (when most money should come in) make sense. Logically speaking it would make most sense to attempt scalps post-teamnews once market has roughly settled on a price and when more money will come in, that is how I usually traded this market in the past. But the queue may get bigger as well, so unless you're on something like 1k stakes minimum it may not even be worth it.
beginertrader wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2024 7:25 am
  • Volume Threshold: I participate in matches that have attracted at least £3,000 in matched bets, ensuring there's sufficient liquidity.
3k matched is very little, while liquidity is a term often used very loosely. Even when a market has a lot of matched and unmatched volume it doesn't mean it's actually "liquid". You basically learn this on day one whilst waiting for hours on that scalp. And if it doesn't even come it's that much harder to accept that fact.
beginertrader wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2024 7:25 am
  • Timing: My entry window spans from 24 hours to 1 hour before kickoff, aiming to capitalise on the final odds adjustments.
Depends on the quality of the market, but don't waste time using a strategy that requires liquidity on illiquid markets. Few years back you could show up to most markets just before the off and do a decent amount of work but markets change and the way the money arrives also changes. Just because something works well today doesn't mean it's going to work the same a few years from now, so a bit of foresight when possible is not a bad thing.
beginertrader wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2024 7:25 am
  • Bet Placement: I employ a strategy targeting one tick change, placing back and lay bets simultaneously, with the lay bet positioned one tick below the back odds.
If your market usually has a 1 tick gap between prices then this may create some imbalance in how quickly both sides get matched.
beginertrader wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2024 7:25 am
  • Exit Strategy: If my lay bet hasn't been matched by the start of the match, I exit the trade
If one side of your bets is getting matched more regularly than the other that in itself may be telling you something, about your market selection and your entry prices etc.
beginertrader wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2024 7:25 am
Despite my adherence to this strategy, I can't shake the feeling that there's room for improvement. Emotional responses to unsuccessful trades occasionally lead to mistakes, underscoring the need for a more disciplined approach.
Always scope for improvement, providing you're applying the right strategy to the right market. Logic here dictates you are looking for minimal volatility and most accurate pricing, so this basically means Premier league. The more obscure your match the more inaccurate the price and the more often you'll get caught out when scalping it.
beginertrader wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2024 7:25 am
Specifically, I'm questioning the optimality of my entry and exit points:
  • Entry Timing: Is there a more strategic moment to enter the market, or is the timing less crucial than I currently believe?
Opportunities generally have clear time frames. Timing is everything IMHO, you can apply the perfect strategy to the perfect market but if you do it the wrong time you can make a complete mess of things. My own scalping or market making strategies worked better when I applied them in tennis inplay or football inplay and despite their differences the one thing they had in common was (good) timing.
beginertrader wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2024 7:25 am
  • Exit Strategy: Would adjusting my exit strategy to accept a one-tick loss, ensuring a minimal loss, be more prudent?
Accepting losses is very prudent indeed, and very necessary. Should be getting a relatively high strike rate in general, so accepting smaller losses should not be an issue. However, if your losses are disproportionate to your wins and far greater, then that's telling you that you were probably attempting to scalp the wrong markets.
beginertrader wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2024 7:25 am
I've consumed virtually all the educational content available on this topic, yet I find myself seeking that additional, nuanced insight that only a community like this can offer.
Not sure how much content you would find out there on such a niche topic. When I actively traded this market I had to rely on trial and error, there weren't even BA videos touching on prematch footy out yet. Experience will eventually tell you which markets look scalpable, but a bigger question is whether you should even pursuit this strategy.
beginertrader wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2024 7:25 am
If you could share your experiences, advice, or any strategies that have served you well, I would be immensely grateful. Your guidance could be the beacon that helps me navigate through these turbulent waters and steer towards a more disciplined, and hopefully, more successful scalping strategy.
From memory you may find some feedback here, I believe this was all exclusively scalping related : viewtopic.php?p=221698#p221698

But I think I was basically saying that you shouldn't force a strategy on wrong markets, or that markets evolve, something along those lines.

Therefore simpler swing strategies may suit this market better, like a more recent example here : viewtopic.php?p=337588#p337588

So generally trading around teamnews can be more efficient, around cup ties especially, the market doesn't always get the lineups right initially, but still has to correct itself.

Good luck 👍
User avatar
Kai
Posts: 6231
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:21 pm

beginertrader wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2024 11:34 am
Anbell wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2024 9:06 am
Serious questions: Which AI bot did you use? What was your prompt?
(I dont bet much on football so I cant offer any substantive answers - sorry!)
Haha! I'm regularly using ChatGPT premium. I find it to do a much better than job than I do in relate to organizing unstructured thoughts into one organised frame.
I explained to it where I am, what I need and where i'm posting, and I asked to craft a post that will explain easily my situation.
It's a brilliant idea to use such a tool, it translates your abstract thoughts and ideas into clear and tangible words.

What more could one ask for really from AI, it's like a babysitter for the mind, or your very own secretary, like Janet from The Good Place.

I'm sure soon you'll be able to give it a body to match!
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conduirez
Posts: 298
Joined: Tue May 23, 2023 8:25 pm

Kai wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2024 12:25 pm
beginertrader wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2024 11:34 am
Anbell wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2024 9:06 am
Serious questions: Which AI bot did you use? What was your prompt?
(I dont bet much on football so I cant offer any substantive answers - sorry!)
Haha! I'm regularly using ChatGPT premium. I find it to do a much better than job than I do in relate to organizing unstructured thoughts into one organised frame.
I explained to it where I am, what I need and where i'm posting, and I asked to craft a post that will explain easily my situation.
It's a brilliant idea to use such a tool, it translates your abstract thoughts and ideas into clear and tangible words.

What more could one ask for really from AI, it's like a babysitter for the mind, or your very own secretary, like Janet from The Good Place.

I'm sure soon you'll be able to give it a body to match!
Image

Not sure what your personnel AI is like but here is mine. :shock:
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Kai
Posts: 6231
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:21 pm

I probably want mine to look, sound and behave like Gordon Ramsay

Can't imagine a better life coach AI

Image
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conduirez
Posts: 298
Joined: Tue May 23, 2023 8:25 pm

Kai wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2024 1:49 pm
I probably want mine to look, sound and behave like Gordon Ramsay

Can't imagine a better life coach AI

Image
Oh that's how ChatGPT works! :lol:
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jamesedwards
Posts: 2324
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:16 pm

A couple of thoughts:
  • I find pre-off football market movement tends to be driven by rumours/leaks of team news, with a final big move about 1 hour out when the starting line-ups are confirmed. It would seem to me the only way to win long-term scalping such markets is to be acting very quickly on team info as it becomes available, and hoping to catch the momentum of a swing. If you're blindly hoping the move in the final hour will complete your scalp, perhaps you're just gambling that the market reaction goes in your favour?
  • Personally, I would use book% conditions rather than volume of matched bets. Some football markets are quite developed despite having relatively low matched volume.
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Derek27
Posts: 23681
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:44 am
Location: UK

beginertrader was never a good choice of username because you'll be stuck with it; you can't change it to advancedtrader or experttrader!
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