Betdaq Feedback/General Chat Thread

[Kai]

I guess it is time to tackle premium charge or in our case no premium charge. The truth is that 99% of customers on here will not be impacted by a charge. There are very few customers who are on a higher rate. The main reason we steer clear of a structured premium charge model is down to the fact we do not need one.

I think a good example might be if we assume our PC charge came in at 100k profit. There is a huge difference between someone who wins 100k on premiership markets versus a Greyhound customer who only bets Doncaster greyhounds.

I find this part conflicting, not sure if you've got your percentages wrong or you calculate "PC" differently when you say "99% of customers on here will not be impacted by a charge". What do you base that on considering that most people on here are PC payers and/or have large turnovers etc. Thought the point of this thread was to engage with API users to try and bring some of that turnover over to BD.

Why hide your PC structure and calculations, as far as I can see there is very little disclosed on the BD website besides "certain profitable customers and customers with heavy usage of the exchange".

[lotora]

Thanks for posting. A excellent idea, and you'll get some useful feedback from the traders here.

My first thought is you need to invest in Bet Angel to bring the Bet Angel for Betdaq version of the software up to date. It's been neglected for years due to underinvestment and functionality has been left far behind the Betfair version.

eg support for TPD would be huge for me.

I think Peter is better placed to answer this. Peter has invested in Betdaq work for Bet Angel in the past but there was never a big uptake when the work was done.

Peter was able to trade Cheltenham and Aintree using Betdaq and Betfair. I think you're correct that there is work that could be done but Peter would need to see the community beginning to engage more with Betdaq on Bet Angel before that could be considered. I am willing to do everything I can to encoruage this from a Betdaq point of view. We hear everyone say they want an alternative to Betfair and we are trying to provide that. I understand we cannot get a customers full wallet share instantly but if people start using us for some of their betting then momentum will grow.

We have an ecosystem with lots of market makers along with a reasonable amount of retail custom and on course bookmakers. The two big segments that we are missing are matched bettors and trading tool users. I have engaged with the matched betting community since December and we are starting to see a flow of their volume moving to Betdaq. This was my first task as I had managed this segment in my previous role. My next challenge is trading tool users and I will admit that I do not have a lot of experience with trading tool users. I am lucky enough that I do have a lot of expertise within Betdaq to help me with this.

Edit: I still think it is worth highlighting improvements as I can keep track of them.

Let’s not beat around the bush – we need Betdaq to pony up if we’re dreaming of a spiffy Bet Angel platform tailored for Betdaq users. Ideas are flying around here, which is brilliant, but it’s Betdaq’s play now.

Peter Webb has laid it out plain and simple numerous times: without some external investment, Bet Angel's Betdaq software isn't getting an upgrade. If they don’t front the cash for Bet Angel, we’re stuck in a ‘chicken and egg’ scenario. People here won’t jump ship without a solid toolset. Betdaq could potentially also see a decent return from the software subscribers alone.

So, Betdaq, how about fueling the innovation engine?

[verance]

I guess it is time to tackle premium charge or in our case no premium charge. The truth is that 99% of customers on here will not be impacted by a charge.
...

This seems a bit weird, the forum is full of very profitable players that are paying PC on Betfair, it's hard to imagine only a handful would be impacted if they moved some of their turnover to Betdaq.

I paid PC on Betdaq and even then never knew how much I'd pay because it was base on quarterly profits rather than lifetime.

A rules based approach would be so much more transparent and make planning easier.

[verance]

(I wonder if Peter pays Betdaq PC or gets special dispensation )

[Betdaq]

You only need a few seconds.

Suspend on race finish then open every race again straight away for a set period of time. It only needs to be 30 secs or so, (or longer in the event of a close photo or stewards enquiry).

Betfair don't reopen enough markets and are often far too slow to do so. You would trade a lot of £££s.

Close photo or stewards you are 100% correct. It should be open. This is the second piece of feedback on this today. I will be looking into it.

You miss the point. There is huge amounts of money sat on betfair wanting to take positions at the end of a race that can't because the market closes so quickly. People want to bet on whether there may be an enquiry, or to manage their positions. Currently they only have the opportunity to do so if there happens to be a photo or enquiry called. If every market was opened for 30 secs or so after every race then people would be pumping money through betdaq because they can't on betfair.

Ok, I did miss the point. I can take this away but as I said we already have others on here complaining our settlements are slow so perhaps Betfair have made a decision that paying out 99% that want to be paid out quicker makes more sense. A lot of customers will want to get money down on the next race and not have big bankrolls.

[Betdaq]

Hi Enda.

Great initiative and long overdue from BetDaq. In no other business that I can think of- however niche Sports Trading may be- has one company had such a dominance in the market as BF has.

I can only echo what previous posters have said regarding Horse Racing settlement times. However, Greyhounds are settled speedily.

Again, it's all Chicken and Egg isn't it? Liquidity and BetAngel for BD won't increase or be updated without numbers and numbers won't increase without these growing or being implemented.

Btw is Matchbook still in Blackpool, Cork? I went for a job interview there many years ago but for some reason I sweated up like a filly on the July course at Newmarket beforehand and needless to say never heard back.

Thanks. Yes, still in Cork.

I was hoping Peter might chime in as he is the expert here and is confident that BA is suitable for trading on BD. I think everyone admits that there could be improvements made but that the current product is fit for use. I have had one or two customers who have tried it and were pleasantly surprised. I know everyone has a slightly different method of trading.

[Betdaq]

(I wonder if Peter pays Betdaq PC or gets special dispensation )

PC is in the majority for commercial market maker type customers.

[Betdaq]

I guess it is time to tackle premium charge or in our case no premium charge. The truth is that 99% of customers on here will not be impacted by a charge. There are very few customers who are on a higher rate. The main reason we steer clear of a structured premium charge model is down to the fact we do not need one.

I think a good example might be if we assume our PC charge came in at 100k profit. There is a huge difference between someone who wins 100k on premiership markets versus a Greyhound customer who only bets Doncaster greyhounds.

I find this part conflicting, not sure if you've got your percentages wrong or you calculate "PC" differently when you say "99% of customers on here will not be impacted by a charge". What do you base that on considering that most people on here are PC payers and/or have large turnovers etc. Thought the point of this thread was to engage with API users to try and bring some of that turnover over to BD.

Why hide your PC structure and calculations, as far as I can see there is very little disclosed on the BD website besides "certain profitable customers and customers with heavy usage of the exchange".

We arent hiding it as we do not have a calculation to give you. If your 100% maker vs 100% taker you are not treated the same. If you are involved in US sports vs Greyhounds you are not the same. Do you want us to work off of a computer says no model? We want this sharp API business and this is not something you will get everywhere. We want to be more competitive than Betfair and work with customers.

[Betdaq]

I guess it is time to tackle premium charge or in our case no premium charge. The truth is that 99% of customers on here will not be impacted by a charge.
...

This seems a bit weird, the forum is full of very profitable players that are paying PC on Betfair, it's hard to imagine only a handful would be impacted if they moved some of their turnover to Betdaq.

I paid PC on Betdaq and even then never knew how much I'd pay because it was base on quarterly profits rather than lifetime.

A rules based approach would be so much more transparent and make planning easier.

If you drop me a DM I can look at the account and try to understand what your situation was. Is this in the last 2 years or during the Entain period?

[Kai]

I guess it is time to tackle premium charge or in our case no premium charge. The truth is that 99% of customers on here will not be impacted by a charge. There are very few customers who are on a higher rate. The main reason we steer clear of a structured premium charge model is down to the fact we do not need one.

I think a good example might be if we assume our PC charge came in at 100k profit. There is a huge difference between someone who wins 100k on premiership markets versus a Greyhound customer who only bets Doncaster greyhounds.

I find this part conflicting, not sure if you've got your percentages wrong or you calculate "PC" differently when you say "99% of customers on here will not be impacted by a charge". What do you base that on considering that most people on here are PC payers and/or have large turnovers etc. Thought the point of this thread was to engage with API users to try and bring some of that turnover over to BD.

Why hide your PC structure and calculations, as far as I can see there is very little disclosed on the BD website besides "certain profitable customers and customers with heavy usage of the exchange".

We arent hiding it as we do not have a calculation to give you. If your 100% maker vs 100% taker you are not treated the same. If you are involved in US sports vs Greyhounds you are not the same. Do you want us to work off of a computer says no model? We want this sharp API business and this is not something you will get everywhere. We want to be more competitive than Betfair and work with customers.

Let me rephrase then please with a simple query, what is your maximum possible charge?

[Kai]

I will hazard a guess that it is very unlikely a PC will impact you but without knowing more information about you I cannot say that for sure. I would be extremely confident that if it was to impact you that the rate would be much lower than elsewhere.

I ask on behalf of others as well because you claim the rates are much lower than elsewhere (Betfair), so what ranges are we talking about here?

Also, it would make more sense hazarding a guess in the other direction on these boards, lest you risk alienating the very customer profile that you are trying to attract.

For example, I too have started in 2014 like yourself, and had no choice but to start paying PC within the same year (Betdaq did not have many tradable markets at the time). And I'm one of the "newer" traders, many others have been involved for much longer, some part of syndicates and some rely heavily on automation tools etc. I would very much listen to their concerns and suggestions.

Just saying more transparency overall could go a long way.

[verance]

If you drop me a DM I can look at the account and try to understand what your situation was. Is this in the last 2 years or during the Entain period?

This would have been during Entain period. I was around 90% market taker only betting on UK horse racing, would I see an improvement now that Entain are gone?

[sionascaig]

I'd echo what Kai says...

Looking at the markets I'd be interested in on Betdaq they have virtually no turnover but on BF I know that BA users account for 30% to 40% of the volume of those markets (and that is just the users I know about)

Looking at the prices on offer (on Betdaq) there is, potentially, a big opportunity to beat those prices and get some volume on those markets.

But need to clear what the commission terms are upfront.

[Kai]

Betfair don't reopen enough markets and are often far too slow to do so. You would trade a lot of £££s.

Yes, sometimes it takes them 3-5 business days

3-5 business days?

It was a joke btw, sorry about that

[jimibt]

just wonder if anyone on here is truly 100% market maker?? positions may be entered by offering up, but mostly they are closed (greened up) at market price. how does that split work in the PC assumptions?